Using ECU data to prove I was stationary at time of accident
Discussion
Hi all
Unfortunately a silly lying idiot reversed into me a couple of weeks ago when I had been stationary for around 5 mins.
We were at a car park where they were waiting for someone in front of her to park and I gave her at least a car length to back up a bit. They clearly didn't look in her rear view mirror amd reversed quite quickly into my car, to the point I barely had time to sound my horn when she hit me.
My question is, can the ECU be interrogated to support/prove the fact my car hadn't moved for between 5 and 10 mins until I drove off after wed swapped names and taken pictures of the cars?
They have admitted in a text that they looked behind and saw there was enough room. I want to be able to prove that my vehicle didn't move for some time.
If this can be done, who would I approach to get this data? Does anyone know home long the ECU would store such data please?
I'm furious with this person. She's lying and is mis representing what happened thus going against her policy conditions and I have asked her Ins co to point this out. She is part of the reason all our premiums go up every year.
Unfortunately a silly lying idiot reversed into me a couple of weeks ago when I had been stationary for around 5 mins.
We were at a car park where they were waiting for someone in front of her to park and I gave her at least a car length to back up a bit. They clearly didn't look in her rear view mirror amd reversed quite quickly into my car, to the point I barely had time to sound my horn when she hit me.
My question is, can the ECU be interrogated to support/prove the fact my car hadn't moved for between 5 and 10 mins until I drove off after wed swapped names and taken pictures of the cars?
They have admitted in a text that they looked behind and saw there was enough room. I want to be able to prove that my vehicle didn't move for some time.
If this can be done, who would I approach to get this data? Does anyone know home long the ECU would store such data please?
I'm furious with this person. She's lying and is mis representing what happened thus going against her policy conditions and I have asked her Ins co to point this out. She is part of the reason all our premiums go up every year.
Certain more modern cars can indeed log data to this level of detail, and it can & has been used as evidence in serious police investigations (eg car accidents involving deaths, etc). I believe they use specialist forensic firms to interrogate and download the data in the ECU to an evidential level. But it obviously depends on age/make/model of car, which you've not stated in the OP (not really an issue, I'd be none the wiser anyway).
If you really wanted to pursue this route, you'd need to seek out one of the few companies who can do this kind of work, and be prepared to pay for it - I imagine £2000-10000.
If you really wanted to pursue this route, you'd need to seek out one of the few companies who can do this kind of work, and be prepared to pay for it - I imagine £2000-10000.
There is an outfit in Liverpool called Hoopers who are vehicle assessors but can access and mine ECU’s as part of their accident investigations.
I’ve never dealt with them so cannot vouch or recommend them but they would be my starter for ten. Whether or not it would be cost-effective for such a low speed, damage only impact or whether they’d want to do the work I do not know.
I’ve never dealt with them so cannot vouch or recommend them but they would be my starter for ten. Whether or not it would be cost-effective for such a low speed, damage only impact or whether they’d want to do the work I do not know.
What car is it and did it "know" it had been hit?
I guess airbags didn't go off but some cars do have some forms of crash detection.
If it's reasonably modern and detected something there's a chance it triggered an Accident Data Recorder.
Or if it's connected to an app it may have something.
Otherwise not much hope as ECUs don't generally record live data without a reason.
I guess airbags didn't go off but some cars do have some forms of crash detection.
If it's reasonably modern and detected something there's a chance it triggered an Accident Data Recorder.
Or if it's connected to an app it may have something.
Otherwise not much hope as ECUs don't generally record live data without a reason.
This is something I do quite regularly for investigations. You’d need software to interrogate the ECUs such as Berla. I’d recommend Harper Shaw https://harpershaw.co.uk/the-vehicle-network-app-1
who’d be able to advise on your options. It’s far from cheap though.
Different vehicles store a wide variety of data though. Some manufacturers store huge amounts whilst others very little. There may also be an option, if your vehicle manufacturer supports it, to acquire telematics data from the manufacturer or their data acquisition partner agency if the vehicles new enough to have an embedded SIM. I’ll warn, this is highly unlikely as it’ll fall outside of GDPR data subject rights and the manufacturers are understandably reluctant to reveal what data they acquire so it’s often difficult from a law enforcement perspective let alone a private one.
What’s the vehicle? I may be able to advise what you’re likely to get.
who’d be able to advise on your options. It’s far from cheap though.
Different vehicles store a wide variety of data though. Some manufacturers store huge amounts whilst others very little. There may also be an option, if your vehicle manufacturer supports it, to acquire telematics data from the manufacturer or their data acquisition partner agency if the vehicles new enough to have an embedded SIM. I’ll warn, this is highly unlikely as it’ll fall outside of GDPR data subject rights and the manufacturers are understandably reluctant to reveal what data they acquire so it’s often difficult from a law enforcement perspective let alone a private one.
What’s the vehicle? I may be able to advise what you’re likely to get.
thisnameistaken said:
There may also be an option, if your vehicle manufacturer supports it, to acquire telematics data from the manufacturer or their data acquisition partner agency if the vehicles new enough to have an embedded SIM. I’ll warn, this is highly unlikely as it’ll fall outside of GDPR data subject rights and the manufacturers are understandably reluctant to reveal what data they acquire so it’s often difficult from a law enforcement perspective let alone a private one.
If the owner of the car wants data to prove where his car was that should (in a sane world) be simple enough. It would be if they asked for data on somebody else's car I would expect a no.Why are manufacturers 'understandably reluctant' to reveal what data they acquire? Would I not have a right to know what data MY car is collecting? What about a SAR?
Simpo Two said:
If the owner of the car wants data to prove where his car was that should (in a sane world) be simple enough. It would be if they asked for data on somebody else's car I would expect a no.
Why are manufacturers 'understandably reluctant' to reveal what data they acquire? Would I not have a right to know what data MY car is collecting? What about a SAR?
They’re reluctant to reveal their data as LEAs use that data for investigations. It becomes very difficult to sell a car when it becomes widely known that car grassed on you via the embedded SIM. It’s very similar to different telecoms networks providing different types of data to LEAs. As soon as it’s common knowledge that network A tells the cops a very specific thing that network B doesn’t. network A’s reputation is tarnished and nobody buys network A. As a result the tactics and technical opportunities are sensitive and the process becomes a protected tactic to protect the manufacturer and LEAs. Why are manufacturers 'understandably reluctant' to reveal what data they acquire? Would I not have a right to know what data MY car is collecting? What about a SAR?
Further to that, many manufacturers operate and store their data outside of the UK using third party data controllers who are also outside of the investigatory powers act and GDPR purposely to make it harder for public and LEAs to acquire the data without a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty.
...Probably to avoid lawsuits similar to the "GM Driver data lawsuit"
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-release...
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-release...
thisnameistaken said:
They’re reluctant to reveal their data as LEAs use that data for investigations. It becomes very difficult to sell a car when it becomes widely known that car grassed on you via the embedded SIM.
If it's so embarrassing for them perhaps they should stop collecting it. But then, if they said 'No we're not collecting that information, really we're not' - would you believe them? The whole thing is frankly disturbing.paul_c123 said:
...Probably to avoid lawsuits similar to the "GM Driver data lawsuit"
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-release...
Seems fair. What I was proposing was the data going to the car's owner (on request if they wanted it), not the authorities.https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-release...
Simpo Two said:
If the owner of the car wants data to prove where his car was that should (in a sane world) be simple enough. It would be if they asked for data on somebody else's car I would expect a no.
Why are manufacturers 'understandably reluctant' to reveal what data they acquire? Would I not have a right to know what data MY car is collecting? What about a SAR?
Car data is car data, not personal data per se.Why are manufacturers 'understandably reluctant' to reveal what data they acquire? Would I not have a right to know what data MY car is collecting? What about a SAR?
I think people are getting muddled between the engine ECU, which may record things like the number of misfires or over-revs, and the airbag Event Data Recorder (ADR).
The EDR generally holds only a few seconds of data which are continuously being over-written unless and until an airbag deployment stops the system. It's there to ascertain "why the airbag deployed" rather than anything else and can include things like throttle, brake and steering positions. I think it's fair to say that if your airbags didn't deploy there'll be nothing to find after the event.
The EDR generally holds only a few seconds of data which are continuously being over-written unless and until an airbag deployment stops the system. It's there to ascertain "why the airbag deployed" rather than anything else and can include things like throttle, brake and steering positions. I think it's fair to say that if your airbags didn't deploy there'll be nothing to find after the event.
Have you explained to your insurance company that you'll be asking them, to ask on your behalf to review all CCTV data in the area and interrogate your car and google\apple tracking data on your phone.
I'd be making sure my insurance company knew that I'd be asking them to do a load of work to prove my innocence!
I'd be making sure my insurance company knew that I'd be asking them to do a load of work to prove my innocence!
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