Unchangeable Will
Discussion
Is it possible to have a will with a paragraph that says something along the lines of "this will is to be taken as my final will, and shall override any subsequent will that might be written. The only way this will can be invalidated is with the written permission of all beneficiaries".
To cover someone who is making a will to leave their assets to the person they want them to go to (their children for example) and to safeguard against them losing their faculties as they get older and being coerced or manipulated into doing a new will leaving everything to their carer or cleaner or some trollop across the road who takes advantage of a lonely and sad old duffer?
(not me obviously)
To cover someone who is making a will to leave their assets to the person they want them to go to (their children for example) and to safeguard against them losing their faculties as they get older and being coerced or manipulated into doing a new will leaving everything to their carer or cleaner or some trollop across the road who takes advantage of a lonely and sad old duffer?
(not me obviously)
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Is it possible to have a will with a paragraph that says something along the lines of "this will is to be taken as my final will, and shall override any subsequent will that might be written. The only way this will can be invalidated is with the written permission of all beneficiaries".
No. ETA: or, if you prefer, yes, it’s completely possible, but about as useful as writing a will that says “I’m not really dead so yahboosucks”.
Edited by BlackTails on Sunday 14th December 21:00
FiF said:
Well a deed of variation requires all beneficiaries who are negatively affected to agree and sign. So it's quite possible to amend a will.
I think that’s something quite different to what the OP is asking about. You’re talking about after a death, and the beneficiaries under the will of the deceased all agreeing to reorganise the testator’s directions set out in the will.
The OP is talking about prior to a death, and the would-be beneficiaries under a will being able to prevent the testator from executing a subsequent and different will in favour of different beneficiaries.
The former is a case of beneficiaries with an entitlement post-death varying (usually giving up) some of their inheritance. The latter would be a case of people named in a will which, prior to a death is simply a piece of paper, trying to control the wishes and property of a living person.
Ignoring potential UK tax considerations - you could settle a trust and the Trust Deed is the governing document. Not all Trust Deeds can be changed.
That is - you are giving away money in your lifetime - with explicit instructions to the Trustees.
To answer the original question - to achieve what is being aimed at - not in a will - but via a Trust would be possible.
That is - you are giving away money in your lifetime - with explicit instructions to the Trustees.
To answer the original question - to achieve what is being aimed at - not in a will - but via a Trust would be possible.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Is it possible to have a will with a paragraph that says something along the lines of "this will is to be taken as my final will, and shall override any subsequent will that might be written. The only way this will can be invalidated is with the written permission of all beneficiaries".
Whilst possible to have written this way it would be then both worthless and pointless should another marriage occur ( genuine as opposed to the trollop ) or indeed a further will ( with a newer date ) be required.If neither happens then the will with that paragraph remains the Last will and testament etc but then the paragraph will still be pointless in that situation !
Doesn't doing a trust limit your access to your money.
The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Doesn't doing a trust limit your access to your money.
The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
I think in that case it might be sensible for said Parent to give a copy of the will ( with their wishes ) to the children / Executors and make sure that their LPA's are done.The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
Whilst that may not stop any potential future scenario of being coerced at least said Children /Executors would be forewarned of potentially any such issue ?
BlackTails said:
I think that s something quite different to what the OP is asking about.
You re talking about after a death, and the beneficiaries under the will of the deceased all agreeing to reorganise the testator s directions set out in the will.
The OP is talking about prior to a death, and the would-be beneficiaries under a will being able to prevent the testator from executing a subsequent and different will in favour of different beneficiaries.
The former is a case of beneficiaries with an entitlement post-death varying (usually giving up) some of their inheritance. The latter would be a case of people named in a will which, prior to a death is simply a piece of paper, trying to control the wishes and property of a living person.
Assuming the "other" beneficiaries shares aren't negatively affected its only the beneficiary who is changing their inheritance that needs to actually sign and have witnessed the DOV.You re talking about after a death, and the beneficiaries under the will of the deceased all agreeing to reorganise the testator s directions set out in the will.
The OP is talking about prior to a death, and the would-be beneficiaries under a will being able to prevent the testator from executing a subsequent and different will in favour of different beneficiaries.
The former is a case of beneficiaries with an entitlement post-death varying (usually giving up) some of their inheritance. The latter would be a case of people named in a will which, prior to a death is simply a piece of paper, trying to control the wishes and property of a living person.
A relative left my Sister and I their estate and I did the DOV to give up my share to my 3 children instead.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Doesn't doing a trust limit your access to your money.
The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
I think they need to get proper legal advice and look up living trusts. Two types irrevocable and revocable. Once assets are in an irrevocable they lose control of the assets and it's very difficult to change, needs consent of beneficiaries and probably a court order.The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
A revocable living trust aiui allows the grantor to retain control of the assets, change it and revoke it as needed. Which whilst it places assets outside the estate for inheritance purposes I think doesn't meet what the person in this case seems to want.
Proper advice from legal professionals experienced in the area needed.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Doesn't doing a trust limit your access to your money.
The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
This is perfectly possible and normal on second marriages. I have a will like this. The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
When I die
A. A sum of money goes to my wife
B. The rest goes to a trust of which my children are beneficiaries but my wife has a life interest.
The trust allows her use of the capital , to pay all her normal expenses , to move house if she wishes and to give money away but only to my children.
T
So to her it makes little practical difference but the money is not hers so if she leaves all her assets to the dogs home it does not impact the underlying assets that goto my children.
Jeremy-75qq8 said:
This is perfectly possible and normal on second marriages. I have a will like this.
When I die
A. A sum of money goes to my wife
B. The rest goes to a trust of which my children are beneficiaries but my wife has a life interest.
The trust allows her use of the capital , to pay all her normal expenses , to move house if she wishes and to give money away but only to my children.
T
So to her it makes little practical difference but the money is not hers so if she leaves all her assets to the dogs home it does not impact the underlying assets that goto my children.
IANAL so forgive the possible naive question - does that will prevent your surviving wife making another will and changing it to benefit, for example, her children?When I die
A. A sum of money goes to my wife
B. The rest goes to a trust of which my children are beneficiaries but my wife has a life interest.
The trust allows her use of the capital , to pay all her normal expenses , to move house if she wishes and to give money away but only to my children.
T
So to her it makes little practical difference but the money is not hers so if she leaves all her assets to the dogs home it does not impact the underlying assets that goto my children.
Our wills allocate the share of our property to our kids with the surviving person having the right to occupy for life or downsize on the same basis with equity being dispersed accordingly but could the remaining partner change what happened with the money?
Jeremy-75qq8 said:
This is perfectly possible and normal on second marriages. I have a will like this.
When I die
A. A sum of money goes to my wife
B. The rest goes to a trust of which my children are beneficiaries but my wife has a life interest.
The trust allows her use of the capital , to pay all her normal expenses , to move house if she wishes and to give money away but only to my children.
T
So to her it makes little practical difference but the money is not hers so if she leaves all her assets to the dogs home it does not impact the underlying assets that goto my children.
But there is nothing to stop you writing a new will which will replace the above, which is what Twig is asking.When I die
A. A sum of money goes to my wife
B. The rest goes to a trust of which my children are beneficiaries but my wife has a life interest.
The trust allows her use of the capital , to pay all her normal expenses , to move house if she wishes and to give money away but only to my children.
T
So to her it makes little practical difference but the money is not hers so if she leaves all her assets to the dogs home it does not impact the underlying assets that goto my children.
ExBoringVolvoDriver said:
Jeremy-75qq8 said:
This is perfectly possible and normal on second marriages. I have a will like this.
When I die
A. A sum of money goes to my wife
B. The rest goes to a trust of which my children are beneficiaries but my wife has a life interest.
The trust allows her use of the capital , to pay all her normal expenses , to move house if she wishes and to give money away but only to my children.
T
So to her it makes little practical difference but the money is not hers so if she leaves all her assets to the dogs home it does not impact the underlying assets that goto my children.
IANAL so forgive the possible naive question - does that will prevent your surviving wife making another will and changing it to benefit, for example, her children?When I die
A. A sum of money goes to my wife
B. The rest goes to a trust of which my children are beneficiaries but my wife has a life interest.
The trust allows her use of the capital , to pay all her normal expenses , to move house if she wishes and to give money away but only to my children.
T
So to her it makes little practical difference but the money is not hers so if she leaves all her assets to the dogs home it does not impact the underlying assets that goto my children.
Our wills allocate the share of our property to our kids with the surviving person having the right to occupy for life or downsize on the same basis with equity being dispersed accordingly but could the remaining partner change what happened with the money?
In your case, if you died, then your surviving wife can then do whatever she wants, once your own will has been executed. You need a Trust if you want to stop this possibility.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Doesn't doing a trust limit your access to your money.
The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
Generally if a person (the settlor) puts assets into a a trust, they lose control of the assets and control is vested in the trustees. Exceptions: the settlor is also a trustee (but then the settlor/trustee has to act in the best interests of the beneficiaries of the trust); the settlor is also a trustee and a beneficiary (but then there are going to conflicts of interest to manage and questions over whether it really is a trust or whether it is a sham).The scenario I'm looking at is one parent dies. Remaining parent wants to leave all monies/property etc to their kids when they die, but wants to be able to blow the money on having a great time if they choose to. But are also concerned that in 20 years time, when their mental health has declined, they may be tricked or coerced out of the money that they haven't blown on themselves.
They know when they're 65 they want the kids to inherit, and that's never going to change.
I guess from the replies it's not possible.
A potential solution would be for the parent to settle their assets in a discretionary trust, naming the discretionary beneficiaries as themselves and their children. But that requires external trustees to manage and distribute the assets as they see fit from time to time; a discretionary beneficiary has nothing more than an expectation that the trustees will exercise their discretion, and zero interest in the assets in the trust.
But in principle the trustees could let the parent live the life of Riley then turn the taps off at gaga time and make a distribution to the children.
Whether this would fall foul of local authority clawback rules for care homes is something to consider quite carefully!
outnumbered said:
IANAL either, but 75qq8's will ensures that his remaining assets get passed to his children, his surviving wife can only take expenses from the Trust, but can't decide to give them all to her new husband, for example. (there is the interesting question of who you get to be the Trustee, to ensure your wishes are carried out properly)
In your case, if you died, then your surviving wife can then do whatever she wants, once your own will has been executed. You need a Trust if you want to stop this possibility.
Thanks - I will have a look at what my will actually says. I know that in the case of my late father, his will placed his property into a trust with the beneficiaries not including his widow (not my mum) which is a good thing because based on her behaviour, then I suspect she may have sold it to benefit her children!In your case, if you died, then your surviving wife can then do whatever she wants, once your own will has been executed. You need a Trust if you want to stop this possibility.
As above yes I can change my will as I choose but my wife cannot gift capital etc other than to my children, but has. Life interest so to all intents and purposes money she has access to is the same as when I was alive.
So her will does not impact the trust assets.
This method is pretty " standard " for second marriages. There will be variations but the overall structure will be similar.
So her will does not impact the trust assets.
This method is pretty " standard " for second marriages. There will be variations but the overall structure will be similar.
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