Loading area - no return in 2hrs / ticketed for 12 mins
Discussion
Parked up in a ‘2hrs loading bay’ yesterday, and while we were away from the car for a short time - moving boxes into a 5th floor flat so had to use lifts - the car was ticketed with a stated duration of 12 minutes.
Can we contest the fine on the basis 12 mins was not a reasonable time to empty the car and move all the stuff into a flat via lifts, where the loading bay allows 2hrs?
Can we contest the fine on the basis 12 mins was not a reasonable time to empty the car and move all the stuff into a flat via lifts, where the loading bay allows 2hrs?
NeilPot said:
Parked up in a 2hrs loading bay yesterday, and while we were away from the car for a short time - moving boxes into a 5th floor flat so had to use lifts - the car was ticketed with a stated duration of 12 minutes.
Can we contest the fine on the basis 12 mins was not a reasonable time to empty the car and move all the stuff into a flat via lifts, where the loading bay allows 2hrs?
Can we contest the fine on the basis 12 mins was not a reasonable time to empty the car and move all the stuff into a flat via lifts, where the loading bay allows 2hrs?
No, because a loading bay is for goods use/for a goods vehicle. Not for someone moving. If you'd hired a van it'd probably have been OK, but loading bays aren't for car use.
DorsetSparky said:
NeilPot said:
Parked up in a 2hrs loading bay yesterday, and while we were away from the car for a short time - moving boxes into a 5th floor flat so had to use lifts - the car was ticketed with a stated duration of 12 minutes.
Can we contest the fine on the basis 12 mins was not a reasonable time to empty the car and move all the stuff into a flat via lifts, where the loading bay allows 2hrs?
Can we contest the fine on the basis 12 mins was not a reasonable time to empty the car and move all the stuff into a flat via lifts, where the loading bay allows 2hrs?
No, because a loading bay is for goods use/for a goods vehicle. Not for someone moving. If you'd hired a van it'd probably have been OK, but loading bays aren't for car use.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/know-yo...
NeilPot said:
Can we contest the fine on the basis 12 mins was not a reasonable time to empty the car and move all the stuff into a flat via lifts, where the loading bay allows 2hrs?
Unfortunately the clue's in the name. It's a (un)loading bay, not a 'moving stuff into a flat' bay.You should have unloaded the car, moved the car, and then used the lifts.
A car left unattended in a loading bay for 12 mins is always going to attract attention.
You said "we", so one of you could have guarded the stuff after unloading while the driver found somewhere better to park.
I agree it's a pain in the arse, but that's where we are now.
Yellow Lizud said:
Unfortunately the clue's in the name. It's a (un)loading bay, not a 'moving stuff into a flat' bay.
You should have unloaded the car, moved the car, and then used the lifts.
A car left unattended in a loading bay for 12 mins is always going to attract attention.
You said "we", so one of you could have guarded the stuff after unloading while the driver found somewhere better to park.
I agree it's a pain in the arse, but that's where we are now.
Not in the real worldYou should have unloaded the car, moved the car, and then used the lifts.
A car left unattended in a loading bay for 12 mins is always going to attract attention.
You said "we", so one of you could have guarded the stuff after unloading while the driver found somewhere better to park.
I agree it's a pain in the arse, but that's where we are now.
Compare and contrast the situation outside some town centre railway stations where they put up signs saying,
"Restricted Parking ZONE"
"No loading at any time except in signed bays."
...which presumably means you can't drop off or pick up passengers unless you can find an empty loading bay.
Separately there are bays saying, "Taxis only, no stopping".
"Restricted Parking ZONE"
"No loading at any time except in signed bays."
...which presumably means you can't drop off or pick up passengers unless you can find an empty loading bay.
Separately there are bays saying, "Taxis only, no stopping".
paul_c123 said:
Yellow Lizud said:
Unfortunately the clue's in the name. It's a (un)loading bay, not a 'moving stuff into a flat' bay.
You should have unloaded the car, moved the car, and then used the lifts.
A car left unattended in a loading bay for 12 mins is always going to attract attention.
You said "we", so one of you could have guarded the stuff after unloading while the driver found somewhere better to park.
I agree it's a pain in the arse, but that's where we are now.
Not in the real worldYou should have unloaded the car, moved the car, and then used the lifts.
A car left unattended in a loading bay for 12 mins is always going to attract attention.
You said "we", so one of you could have guarded the stuff after unloading while the driver found somewhere better to park.
I agree it's a pain in the arse, but that's where we are now.
Yellow Lizud said:
Unfortunately the clue's in the name. It's a (un)loading bay, not a 'moving stuff into a flat' bay.
You should have unloaded the car, moved the car, and then used the lifts.
A car left unattended in a loading bay for 12 mins is always going to attract attention.
You said "we", so one of you could have guarded the stuff after unloading while the driver found somewhere better to park.
I agree it's a pain in the arse, but that's where we are now.
But a loading bay can be used for unloading as well (and not just restricted to commercial vehicles). Situation depends on the exact wording of the sign. You should have unloaded the car, moved the car, and then used the lifts.
A car left unattended in a loading bay for 12 mins is always going to attract attention.
You said "we", so one of you could have guarded the stuff after unloading while the driver found somewhere better to park.
I agree it's a pain in the arse, but that's where we are now.
OP can stick a street view link or a photo of the sign which should have been on the PCN to verify.
NeilPot said:
As mentioned upthread, that means you unload the car and move the car. You can't leave the car parked there whilst you get the unloaded stuff up to the fifth floor flat.Edit: changed my mind. Claude pointed me at some case law.
Claude said:
The strong points
The bay permits two hours. That's the critical fact. This isn't a yellow line where a CEO might reasonably question whether loading is happening at all — the council has explicitly designated this spot for loading and given users up to 120 minutes. Twelve minutes is 10% of the permitted time. The council has already conceded that loading legitimately takes substantial time here.
Moving house contents into a 5th-floor flat is textbook loading. Boxes are heavy and bulky, the vehicle is genuinely necessary to transport them, and this is precisely the activity the exemption exists to protect. Sprake v Tester concerns about "small parcels" don't apply — this is exactly what a load looks like.
Brief absences from the vehicle are part of loading. Jane Packer Flowers is explicit that loading "includes the period away from the vehicle and that a period of several minutes is not unreasonable." Carrying boxes into a building, using a lift to the 5th floor, depositing them, and returning is part of the loading activity, not a break from it. A CEO who ticketed because no one was at the car has misunderstood the law.
The observation period was too short. CEOs typically observe for 3–5 minutes before issuing. For a fifth-floor flat with lift use, a single round trip — down in the lift, load arms, up in the lift, walk to flat, deposit, return — could easily exceed 5 minutes by itself. If the CEO observed for less than the time of one realistic round trip and concluded "no loading," that's not a sound basis for the PCN.
How to actually contest it
Don't pay the reduced rate yet — challenge it. The process is:
Informal challenge first to the council, in writing, before the Notice to Owner. Keep it factual and short. State: the bay permits 2 hours' loading; you were actively loading boxes from the vehicle to a 5th-floor flat using the lift; brief absences are inherent in loading to upper floors and are recognised as part of loading in Jane Packer Flowers v Westminster and Sprake v Tester; the 12-minute duration is well within the bay's own permitted time.
Evidence helps a lot. Anything that shows boxes were actually moved that day: photos of the boxes in the flat, a removals receipt or van hire invoice, anything dated, even a witness statement from whoever was helping. If there was someone going up and down with boxes during those 12 minutes, that person is a witness.
If rejected, formal representations after the Notice to Owner, then appeal to the adjudicator (London Tribunals if it's London, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal elsewhere). Adjudicators apply Jane Packer Flowers routinely and councils know they tend to lose these.
Read the sign carefully. Two things to check: (a) does it say "Goods vehicles only"? If yes, and the car is a private car, that's a separate problem — though the case law confirms private cars can load (Jane Packer again). (b) does it say "Loading only" or just "Loading"? The wording sometimes matters.
One honest caveat
Councils sometimes argue that on a busy loading bay the user must be visibly engaged in loading on each observation, and that long unattended periods undermine the exemption. The counter is that (i) loading to upper floors necessarily involves absence, (ii) 12 minutes is short in absolute terms, and (iii) the bay's own 2-hour limit anticipates exactly this kind of extended loading. The poster is on the right side of all three points.
Tell them to challenge it, gather evidence, and not pay the reduced rate in panic. The 50% discount is preserved through the informal challenge stage in most authorities, and even if they end up paying, they should at least force the council to examine the case rather than banking the £65.
The bay permits two hours. That's the critical fact. This isn't a yellow line where a CEO might reasonably question whether loading is happening at all — the council has explicitly designated this spot for loading and given users up to 120 minutes. Twelve minutes is 10% of the permitted time. The council has already conceded that loading legitimately takes substantial time here.
Moving house contents into a 5th-floor flat is textbook loading. Boxes are heavy and bulky, the vehicle is genuinely necessary to transport them, and this is precisely the activity the exemption exists to protect. Sprake v Tester concerns about "small parcels" don't apply — this is exactly what a load looks like.
Brief absences from the vehicle are part of loading. Jane Packer Flowers is explicit that loading "includes the period away from the vehicle and that a period of several minutes is not unreasonable." Carrying boxes into a building, using a lift to the 5th floor, depositing them, and returning is part of the loading activity, not a break from it. A CEO who ticketed because no one was at the car has misunderstood the law.
The observation period was too short. CEOs typically observe for 3–5 minutes before issuing. For a fifth-floor flat with lift use, a single round trip — down in the lift, load arms, up in the lift, walk to flat, deposit, return — could easily exceed 5 minutes by itself. If the CEO observed for less than the time of one realistic round trip and concluded "no loading," that's not a sound basis for the PCN.
How to actually contest it
Don't pay the reduced rate yet — challenge it. The process is:
Informal challenge first to the council, in writing, before the Notice to Owner. Keep it factual and short. State: the bay permits 2 hours' loading; you were actively loading boxes from the vehicle to a 5th-floor flat using the lift; brief absences are inherent in loading to upper floors and are recognised as part of loading in Jane Packer Flowers v Westminster and Sprake v Tester; the 12-minute duration is well within the bay's own permitted time.
Evidence helps a lot. Anything that shows boxes were actually moved that day: photos of the boxes in the flat, a removals receipt or van hire invoice, anything dated, even a witness statement from whoever was helping. If there was someone going up and down with boxes during those 12 minutes, that person is a witness.
If rejected, formal representations after the Notice to Owner, then appeal to the adjudicator (London Tribunals if it's London, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal elsewhere). Adjudicators apply Jane Packer Flowers routinely and councils know they tend to lose these.
Read the sign carefully. Two things to check: (a) does it say "Goods vehicles only"? If yes, and the car is a private car, that's a separate problem — though the case law confirms private cars can load (Jane Packer again). (b) does it say "Loading only" or just "Loading"? The wording sometimes matters.
One honest caveat
Councils sometimes argue that on a busy loading bay the user must be visibly engaged in loading on each observation, and that long unattended periods undermine the exemption. The counter is that (i) loading to upper floors necessarily involves absence, (ii) 12 minutes is short in absolute terms, and (iii) the bay's own 2-hour limit anticipates exactly this kind of extended loading. The poster is on the right side of all three points.
Tell them to challenge it, gather evidence, and not pay the reduced rate in panic. The 50% discount is preserved through the informal challenge stage in most authorities, and even if they end up paying, they should at least force the council to examine the case rather than banking the £65.
Edited by 48k on Monday 27th April 12:53
12 minutes is perhaps within the remit of 'loading'.
if you were 'loading' multiple boxes, it might be reasonable.
12 minutes to deliver one parcel and stop for a cup of tea would not be reasonable IMHO.
I expect the issue is that the car was unloaded in 2 minutes then no activity at the car for 10 minutes?
Not the worst abuse of 'loading', IMHO.
if you were 'loading' multiple boxes, it might be reasonable.
12 minutes to deliver one parcel and stop for a cup of tea would not be reasonable IMHO.
I expect the issue is that the car was unloaded in 2 minutes then no activity at the car for 10 minutes?
Not the worst abuse of 'loading', IMHO.
pavarotti1980 said:
But a loading bay can be used for unloading as well (and not just restricted to commercial vehicles). Situation depends on the exact wording of the sign.
I think you have missed the point completely. The OP has already said the car was left unattended for 12 mins. That is why he got ticketed.
It has absolutely nothing to do with whether he was loading or unloading, whether it was a commercial vehicle or not, and certainly nothing to do with the exact wording of the sign.
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