Traffic officer with speed gun — blanked out terminal signs
Discussion
I took my family to Pennington Flash country park today, along the East Lancs (A580) road towards Manchester. After Haydock Island, the road continues at 60 MPH for a short while:
After a subsequent roundabout, I know from years of driving the road that it then (usually) drops to a 50 MPH limit. Today, however, the signs were fully sprayed out in 'roadworks grey' primer (image captured on a later drive-by on our way home):
A short time after the blanked-out signs, a traffic cop was sat in a lay-by after a visual hill, actively aiming his speed gun at all approaching cars further back behind me, one after the other. This despite the fact that the traffic was slowing to around 35mph at that point, for an upcoming red ATS; and as such I find it hard to understand how he 'formed the opinion the targeted vehicle was speeding'. Alas. There was also a single (as far as I saw, with heavy goods traffic all down the road) repeater saying '50' just before the speed trap:
There was a local area/response police car a few cars in front of me, doing clearly close to 60mph on approach at first (before the ATS ahead changed), as was all the surrounding traffic. Hesitant about the blanked out speed limit sign (assuming thus a continuation of the existing 60 MPH limit from further back, but being cautious about it), I was doing an indicated 55mph as I overtook a heavy in lane 1. The officer was literally moving his gun from one vehicle to the next as I passed him.
Likely I'm well under any potential enforcement threshold either way, likely a true 52–53 mph, but it got me thinking. Whilst I know TSRGD was updated to allow changes to the rules surrounding single speed limit gate signs and repeaters etc, it's still my understanding that a change in limit still requires a terminal gate advising of the new lower limit. As such, what exactly was this officer aiming to enforce, and is it even enforceable? I can only assume he was targeting those over 60mph, or else was somehow unaware the lower speed limit signs have been painted over. He'd have to have driven past them on his way to his present location, however!
Just in case, I looped back on myself on the way home and had my wife capture a (geo-tagged, timed and dated, 4K HDR) video, including 30 seconds of the approach showing the exact location, and capturing the blanked out gates. A compressed screenshot of that video was included above for illustrative purposes, but the video is much clearer itself.
Say someone did get a NIP for >50mph, what's the state of play? No, I don't think it's secretly me — as I said I was only doing an indicated 55mph and slowing at the time I crested the hill into his visibility, and touch wood I'm 20 years into driving and I've never had one! And yes, I reported it on Waze (it wasn't on there!). I'm just genuinely curious about the legalities here. TIA!
After a subsequent roundabout, I know from years of driving the road that it then (usually) drops to a 50 MPH limit. Today, however, the signs were fully sprayed out in 'roadworks grey' primer (image captured on a later drive-by on our way home):
A short time after the blanked-out signs, a traffic cop was sat in a lay-by after a visual hill, actively aiming his speed gun at all approaching cars further back behind me, one after the other. This despite the fact that the traffic was slowing to around 35mph at that point, for an upcoming red ATS; and as such I find it hard to understand how he 'formed the opinion the targeted vehicle was speeding'. Alas. There was also a single (as far as I saw, with heavy goods traffic all down the road) repeater saying '50' just before the speed trap:
There was a local area/response police car a few cars in front of me, doing clearly close to 60mph on approach at first (before the ATS ahead changed), as was all the surrounding traffic. Hesitant about the blanked out speed limit sign (assuming thus a continuation of the existing 60 MPH limit from further back, but being cautious about it), I was doing an indicated 55mph as I overtook a heavy in lane 1. The officer was literally moving his gun from one vehicle to the next as I passed him.
Likely I'm well under any potential enforcement threshold either way, likely a true 52–53 mph, but it got me thinking. Whilst I know TSRGD was updated to allow changes to the rules surrounding single speed limit gate signs and repeaters etc, it's still my understanding that a change in limit still requires a terminal gate advising of the new lower limit. As such, what exactly was this officer aiming to enforce, and is it even enforceable? I can only assume he was targeting those over 60mph, or else was somehow unaware the lower speed limit signs have been painted over. He'd have to have driven past them on his way to his present location, however!
Just in case, I looped back on myself on the way home and had my wife capture a (geo-tagged, timed and dated, 4K HDR) video, including 30 seconds of the approach showing the exact location, and capturing the blanked out gates. A compressed screenshot of that video was included above for illustrative purposes, but the video is much clearer itself.
Say someone did get a NIP for >50mph, what's the state of play? No, I don't think it's secretly me — as I said I was only doing an indicated 55mph and slowing at the time I crested the hill into his visibility, and touch wood I'm 20 years into driving and I've never had one! And yes, I reported it on Waze (it wasn't on there!). I'm just genuinely curious about the legalities here. TIA!
OutInTheShed said:
On your speed awareness course, they will tell you that it's a 30 limit 'becoz streetlites innit', unless indicated other wise, i.e. the 50 repeater.
It *was* indicated otherwise, by the nice shiny yellow-bordered 60 a few hundred yards prior to the blank grey disks. I've not heard of anyone getting a SAC for 53/50 but I'll be happy to be proven wrong. The 50 repeater was after the TPOL with the speed gun could already take a reading.Edit: Your attempt at humour aside, after a little Googling it seems like:
Section 85 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, The TSRGD, and Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual all require a proper terminal sign and adequate signage to inform a driver of a reduction in speed limit. Without it, I'd argue the previous limit would still apply, no?
Edited by rainmakerraw on Sunday 8th November 23:15
Was this around 3:30--4pm today?
If so I know who was driving the divisional Toyota in front of you
Cops had just left the remembrance parade for Golborne which runs at 2pm on Remembrance Sunday traditionally.
The signs are sprayed out as there has been a ton of work between the Golborne roundabout and Stonecross, they haven't been reverted as yet.
It was a traffic PCSO who was using the (LT 20:20 I think) radar gun, based out of Eccles.
If so I know who was driving the divisional Toyota in front of you
Cops had just left the remembrance parade for Golborne which runs at 2pm on Remembrance Sunday traditionally.The signs are sprayed out as there has been a ton of work between the Golborne roundabout and Stonecross, they haven't been reverted as yet.
It was a traffic PCSO who was using the (LT 20:20 I think) radar gun, based out of Eccles.
Kaelic said:
Was this around 3:30--4pm today?
If so I know who was driving the divisional Toyota in front of you Cops had just left the remembrance parade for Golborne which runs at 2pm on Remembrance Sunday traditionally.
The signs are sprayed out as there has been a ton of work between the Golborne roundabout and Stonecross, they haven't been reverted as yet.
It was a traffic PCSO who was using the (LT 20:20 I think) radar gun, based out of Eccles.
Yup, that's the car (and the traffic PCSO)! If so I know who was driving the divisional Toyota in front of you
Cops had just left the remembrance parade for Golborne which runs at 2pm on Remembrance Sunday traditionally.The signs are sprayed out as there has been a ton of work between the Golborne roundabout and Stonecross, they haven't been reverted as yet.
It was a traffic PCSO who was using the (LT 20:20 I think) radar gun, based out of Eccles.
So what limit was he ostensibly enforcing, with the prior 60 in place and the (I assume still 50 but can't know) following sign fully painted out, for roadworks that no longer exist? Genuinely curious, and as I said I genuinely aren't expecting a FPN either way, I'm just curious!Yeah I was driving the divisional Toyota had just left the parade. I was about to head to a grade1 on throw my blues on but the job got cancelled as I was about to start making. Small world!
That PCSO is always hanging around the Lancs and then comes into Leigh nick to refuel and go home... doesn't even say hello!
I dunno what the speed should have been, I slowed down as I wanted to see if it was a cop I knew, he didn't even wave back the miserable bugger!
That PCSO is always hanging around the Lancs and then comes into Leigh nick to refuel and go home... doesn't even say hello!
I dunno what the speed should have been, I slowed down as I wanted to see if it was a cop I knew, he didn't even wave back the miserable bugger!
BertBert said:
Just so I'm clear, it was a dual carriageway with a 60 sign. And where previously it had gone to 50 the signs were painted over so still a 60?
No streetlights to confuse matters.
Lancs is a fast road 60 usually but slows to 50 in that area near Stonecross, I dont recall if there are any 50's not painted over. No streetlights to confuse matters.
Kaelic said:
Lancs is a fast road 60 usually but slows to 50 in that area near Stonecross, I dont recall if there are any 50's not painted over.
I saw one repeater within line of sight of the PCSO, before that only the terminal signs fully painted out. No temporary speed limit signage (not even blown over ones) It was 60, blank sign, 50 repeater with a speed gun attached. And yes, small world indeed! paul_c123 said:
Small 50 repeater is enough to make it an enforceable 50.
Can you source that? Peake v Director of Public Prosecution [2010] EWHC 286 (Admin) decided that a sign alongside an enforcement point, with no prior adequate signage, was inadequate and didn't constitute a legal and enforceable limit. Some prior replies seem to be alluding to Jones v Director of Public Prosecutions [2011] EWHC 50 (Admin), but that was a materially different circumstance. In that case the driver passed a valid terminal change of speed limit gateway sign. In this instance, the terminal signs were sprayed fully over (no red border, no indication it even was a speed limit sign, rather than any other order or even a deprecated roadworks sign), so that doesn't apply either. The Traffic Signs Manual, paragraph 8.10.6, says that speed enforcement should be highly visible and that drivers should be made fully aware of the prevailing speed limit. The legislation also lays out minimum distances past the terminal sign from which a repeater can be posted. A single repeater (potentially obscured by passing heavy goods traffic) alongside an enforcement point, long after the... oh wait... there is no terminal sign at all.
I'd argue the stretch is, by definition, fully unenforceable at 50mph. Regarding the street lighting, the DfT's own guidance says that where a 30 mph restricted-road limit begins at the commencement of street lighting, terminal signs should be positioned at the first lighting column. It also stresses that clearly visible terminal signing is essential. In this case, there was only a clearly posted pair of 60 signs. We even have a serving police officer posting here, who was just in front of me, who admits he doesn't know what the limit was supposed to be. Clearly, the signage was ineffective and non-compliant.
Still, the PCSO (who by all accounts is a miserable sort!) got to stretch his legs?
It wasn't worth editing my post to add this tangent, but for giggles:
At the other end of the Lancs in Kirkby, there's a set of 50 terminal signs adjacent to the M57 exit slip. The repeaters then go 50, 40, 50, 40. If you approach from the Lancs rather than the exit slip, there's no terminal sign at all. Good luck with working out that one as you drive along, too.
It really shouldn't be difficult to put up the correct signs!
At the other end of the Lancs in Kirkby, there's a set of 50 terminal signs adjacent to the M57 exit slip. The repeaters then go 50, 40, 50, 40. If you approach from the Lancs rather than the exit slip, there's no terminal sign at all. Good luck with working out that one as you drive along, too.
It really shouldn't be difficult to put up the correct signs! rainmakerraw said:
It wasn't worth editing my post to add this tangent, but for giggles:
At the other end of the Lancs in Kirkby, there's a set of 50 terminal signs adjacent to the M57 exit slip. The repeaters then go 50, 40, 50, 40. If you approach from the Lancs rather than the exit slip, there's no terminal sign at all. Good luck with working out that one as you drive along, too. It really shouldn't be difficult to put up the correct signs!
So tempted to make a sarcastic but predictable remark about scores in the Liverpool area being a tad unpredictable this season.....but I won't.At the other end of the Lancs in Kirkby, there's a set of 50 terminal signs adjacent to the M57 exit slip. The repeaters then go 50, 40, 50, 40. If you approach from the Lancs rather than the exit slip, there's no terminal sign at all. Good luck with working out that one as you drive along, too.
It really shouldn't be difficult to put up the correct signs! rainmakerraw said:
Can you source that? Peake v Director of Public Prosecution [2010] EWHC 286 (Admin) decided that a sign alongside an enforcement point, with no prior adequate signage, was inadequate and didn't constitute a legal and enforceable limit. Some prior replies seem to be alluding to Jones v Director of Public Prosecutions [2011] EWHC 50 (Admin), but that was a materially different circumstance. In that case the driver passed a valid terminal change of speed limit gateway sign. In this instance, the terminal signs were sprayed fully over (no red border, no indication it even was a speed limit sign, rather than any other order or even a deprecated roadworks sign), so that doesn't apply either.
Nope, but in around 2017 they "loosened" the requirement for signage so that a repeater, or a speed limit painted on a road is sufficient. No longer are a pair of "gateway" larger size signs needed to make it enforceable. It was at least 4 years ago I chanced upon this change on the internet somewhere, I remembered it existed but can't remember the link to the source. So the 2010 case law is out of date and superseded by more regulation, I think.paul_c123 said:
Nope, but in around 2017 they "loosened" the requirement for signage so that a repeater, or a speed limit painted on a road is sufficient. No longer are a pair of "gateway" larger size signs needed to make it enforceable. It was at least 4 years ago I chanced upon this change on the internet somewhere, I remembered it existed but can't remember the link to the source. So the 2010 case law is out of date and superseded by more regulation, I think.
TSRGD updates in 2016 apply, yes. I linked it and the associated legislation further up the thread. It's my understanding that said repeater still needs at least a terminal sign though (rather than the historic full pair), and you certainly can't have no signs at all then plonk a single repeater alongside a speed trap that already measured your speed before you could physically see it. Happy to be corrected by AGT or similar though, hence posting the thread! rainmakerraw said:
TSRGD updates in 2016 apply, yes. I linked it and the associated legislation further up the thread. It's my understanding that said repeater still needs at least a terminal sign though (rather than the historic full pair), and you certainly can't have no signs at all then plonk a single repeater alongside a speed trap that already measured your speed before you could physically see it. Happy to be corrected by AGT or similar though, hence posting the thread!
In your OP, you said that there was a single 50 repeater JUST before the traffic officer. If he was in fact measuring the speed of cars before the sign, instead of after, yes I agree its not correct to be enforcing 50, it would be whatever the previous limit was. And if it were a 60 then a painted over 50 sign, the speed limit which would apply would be 60.I am saying, the 2016 regs took away the need for a "terminal gate", now a single repeater on its own, or even the speed limit painted on the road, is enough to be enforceable as the speed limit of the road once its passed.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff