County Court for selling a car privately?
Discussion
Hi all,
I have read loads of posts about the problems with unreasonable buyers, takes all sorts to make a World?
I sold a car privately almost a year a go for a retired Teacher friend who was about to move abroad. The car was a run of the mill 2005 Scenic auto... very low miles and full service history, full MOT, no issues, drove well, typical retired Teacher car. Stuck it on fb and a local lady was interested in it as her car had gone bang! She didn't have the full asking but I did say my friend would be glad of the money. The buyer only wanted the car for her commute.. thought that was a bit extravagant as she only lived 1.5 miles from her workplace?
She came mob handed with parents, they were happy to buy the car without checking it first but I wasn't, so I spent a good half hour running through the car and taking them out for a test drive. I explained that it wasn't my car etc.. and it could do with a long run as it had been sat for a month, also explained that the car had a lot of electronics, e brake, key card etc.. and that there was a very good French specialist garage less than a mile from her house, buyer knew the garage well, Deal done, deposit paid, collection day arranged.
They came to collect the car a few days later and asked if they could inspect it again before paying the balance, not a problem, knock yourselves out! After a while they came back, paid the balance and left with the car.
Three days later I got a call from her Father saying that the battery was flat and he had to jump start it! Again I repeated that the buyer needed to take the car on a long run or charge the battery. A day later and I get another phone call.... battery is dead, mechanic has towed the car to his workshop because it was late and raining... looked at the car again... we want our money back... don't want the car... "What is the fault with the car?" asks I. "Want our money back we don't like the car" and "you mi-sold it to us.... 1974 sale of goods act" etc.. etc..
I then get a stream of letters to that effect and a "garage report" from the Father's friend, not the French specialist, which just says he found water in a floor locker? Doesn't say anything about the car running, starting issues or faults... "garage" deems the car unroadworthy without inspection?
After several conversations which involve me asking "what is wrong with the car?" and the reply being a blank look followed by.. mi-sold... etc.. etc.. but with no reason for the rants or letters? At least tell they could tell me how I have misled them!?
Few weeks pass and I think I have heard the last of it... County Court paperwork drops on the mat, FFS! So to cut a long story short... it went to mediation, I said stick it where the sun don't shine I am not paying a penny and certainly not the bogus £1950 they wanted as costs for a £695 car! It went to a telephone hearing and the Magistrate threw out their "expert witness" as he was a mate of the claimant and the inflated costs claim was questionable, especially as there wasn't a report on the car or a break down of costs to back up the claim .
As the claimant still wanted to proceed, the Judge made an order that both parties should submit three garages each and the Court would appoint one to carry out a report at the expense of the claimant.
Few weeks pass and a letter comes from the Court.... You must use Northern vehicle assessors who will charge no more than £750 and the defendant must pay half the costs? Northern contacted me last week by letter asking if I would be proceeding with the report and paying half the costs?
The claimant has now had the car for a year... I don't know whats been done to it, mysteriously a car of the same model, age and colour appeared at this back street... industrial unit... second hand tyre sales garage place where the car is being stored, it sat around for a few weeks then disappeared? My feelings are that I am being conned.
I am getting worried now, as I move deeper and deeper into the legal swamp.
Can I refuse to pay for a report as I have not requested it and the Judge clearly said "claimant picks up the cost" at the telephone hearing?
I have a bank statement clearly showing that the money went to the car's owner, I am not a trader and insisted they inspected the car when they didn't want to.
My gut feeling is that they got home after buying the car, didn't check the Tax cost and got a shock when it came back at over £300, Mechanic friend went... "I have a little car you can have if we can get your money back?"
I am amazed it has gone this far without the claimant giving a reason for the action other than... don't want the car! Surely there must be a vetting system for peeps who use the on-line small claims application... they didn't even fill out the "complaint" section with a reason?
Has anyone got any advice? I have legals in the family but like me they have always been involved with conveyancing and left the mucky stuff to a partner.
I have read loads of posts about the problems with unreasonable buyers, takes all sorts to make a World?
I sold a car privately almost a year a go for a retired Teacher friend who was about to move abroad. The car was a run of the mill 2005 Scenic auto... very low miles and full service history, full MOT, no issues, drove well, typical retired Teacher car. Stuck it on fb and a local lady was interested in it as her car had gone bang! She didn't have the full asking but I did say my friend would be glad of the money. The buyer only wanted the car for her commute.. thought that was a bit extravagant as she only lived 1.5 miles from her workplace?
She came mob handed with parents, they were happy to buy the car without checking it first but I wasn't, so I spent a good half hour running through the car and taking them out for a test drive. I explained that it wasn't my car etc.. and it could do with a long run as it had been sat for a month, also explained that the car had a lot of electronics, e brake, key card etc.. and that there was a very good French specialist garage less than a mile from her house, buyer knew the garage well, Deal done, deposit paid, collection day arranged.
They came to collect the car a few days later and asked if they could inspect it again before paying the balance, not a problem, knock yourselves out! After a while they came back, paid the balance and left with the car.
Three days later I got a call from her Father saying that the battery was flat and he had to jump start it! Again I repeated that the buyer needed to take the car on a long run or charge the battery. A day later and I get another phone call.... battery is dead, mechanic has towed the car to his workshop because it was late and raining... looked at the car again... we want our money back... don't want the car... "What is the fault with the car?" asks I. "Want our money back we don't like the car" and "you mi-sold it to us.... 1974 sale of goods act" etc.. etc..
I then get a stream of letters to that effect and a "garage report" from the Father's friend, not the French specialist, which just says he found water in a floor locker? Doesn't say anything about the car running, starting issues or faults... "garage" deems the car unroadworthy without inspection?
After several conversations which involve me asking "what is wrong with the car?" and the reply being a blank look followed by.. mi-sold... etc.. etc.. but with no reason for the rants or letters? At least tell they could tell me how I have misled them!?
Few weeks pass and I think I have heard the last of it... County Court paperwork drops on the mat, FFS! So to cut a long story short... it went to mediation, I said stick it where the sun don't shine I am not paying a penny and certainly not the bogus £1950 they wanted as costs for a £695 car! It went to a telephone hearing and the Magistrate threw out their "expert witness" as he was a mate of the claimant and the inflated costs claim was questionable, especially as there wasn't a report on the car or a break down of costs to back up the claim .
As the claimant still wanted to proceed, the Judge made an order that both parties should submit three garages each and the Court would appoint one to carry out a report at the expense of the claimant.
Few weeks pass and a letter comes from the Court.... You must use Northern vehicle assessors who will charge no more than £750 and the defendant must pay half the costs? Northern contacted me last week by letter asking if I would be proceeding with the report and paying half the costs?
The claimant has now had the car for a year... I don't know whats been done to it, mysteriously a car of the same model, age and colour appeared at this back street... industrial unit... second hand tyre sales garage place where the car is being stored, it sat around for a few weeks then disappeared? My feelings are that I am being conned.
I am getting worried now, as I move deeper and deeper into the legal swamp.
Can I refuse to pay for a report as I have not requested it and the Judge clearly said "claimant picks up the cost" at the telephone hearing?
I have a bank statement clearly showing that the money went to the car's owner, I am not a trader and insisted they inspected the car when they didn't want to.
My gut feeling is that they got home after buying the car, didn't check the Tax cost and got a shock when it came back at over £300, Mechanic friend went... "I have a little car you can have if we can get your money back?"
I am amazed it has gone this far without the claimant giving a reason for the action other than... don't want the car! Surely there must be a vetting system for peeps who use the on-line small claims application... they didn't even fill out the "complaint" section with a reason?
Has anyone got any advice? I have legals in the family but like me they have always been involved with conveyancing and left the mucky stuff to a partner.
Hoofy said:
Strange. This was a private sale. Would love to know why the court is proceeding.
I guess because of the possibility that they were misled.If the ad or seller lied about it, for example. I can't see that the court could possibly find in favour of the buyers though. It's a £695 car that's 15 years old - the buyer shouldn't have very high expectations
This kind of s
t worries the living daylights out of me OP!
I work at home (makes tyre kicking easier)
I am the "family petrol head" with an eBay account
Therefor in the last 18 months, I've ended up selling my auntie's CitiGo, my Father in law's Polo, my sister in law's 5008 and my own Honda Accord. I've now got my best mates Passat CC sat on the drive for sale, because he works away for long stretches. All have been sold and money transferred to owner. All have been genuinely private sales. All have porbably achieved a higher price than they would have been given trade, because i fix/ service/ polished them all before sale.
Might have to start telling them all to Foxtrot Oscar.
t worries the living daylights out of me OP!I work at home (makes tyre kicking easier)
I am the "family petrol head" with an eBay account
Therefor in the last 18 months, I've ended up selling my auntie's CitiGo, my Father in law's Polo, my sister in law's 5008 and my own Honda Accord. I've now got my best mates Passat CC sat on the drive for sale, because he works away for long stretches. All have been sold and money transferred to owner. All have been genuinely private sales. All have porbably achieved a higher price than they would have been given trade, because i fix/ service/ polished them all before sale.
Might have to start telling them all to Foxtrot Oscar.
Jimmy Recard said:
I guess because of the possibility that they were misled.
If the ad or seller lied about it, for example. I can't see that the court could possibly find in favour of the buyers though. It's a £695 car that's 15 years old - the buyer shouldn't have very high expectations
This is why WeBuyAnycar is so popular. Just to add, water in the underfloor storage bins will be due to the drain holes under the scuttle being blocked with leaves and mud. Once the scuttle fills with water it comes into the cabin, soaks into the floor insulation and kills the electrics.If the ad or seller lied about it, for example. I can't see that the court could possibly find in favour of the buyers though. It's a £695 car that's 15 years old - the buyer shouldn't have very high expectations
One thing, was the advery purely factual or did it say things such as "good condition" etc? Having watched an episode of Judge Rinder with a similar case where a £500 car had a snapped cambelt he gave judgement in favour of the buyer due to the advert.
I have owned Scenics before and the In-laws had one. I know what to look for with them, Dephaser issues, temic switches, ebrake failures, key card issues etc... wouldn't buy another personally.. this car was good and ran well. My FB description was fact based.. not my car so I wasn't going to go into detail about trips made in it and how it has never gone wrong..... It was just... Full MOT, Mileage and reason for selling. I keep looking at the advert thinking "there is nothing on it that could be misleading" and the buyer has not said how I have misled them, surely you have to give a reason?
I know the Scenic drainage holes can block under the scuttle but this car has been sat in a dry garage... the "mate" said that this had been going on for sometime? It wasn't there when I showed them the storage areas and the car would have smelt of damp or misted up when the heating went on.... I am pissed because I spent so long going through the car with these people showing them everything and explaining how it all worked and they have behaved like this because of a flat battery! The water ingress has not been identified as an issue affecting the cars electrics, they have not sited any running issues with the car other than it had a flat battery... they haven't charged the battery or even attempted to find a fault if there is one? The buyer's father said that they inspected it a third time and decided they didn't want the car... no reason.. just changed their minds, then I started getting the letters. If it was my car and I had the money from it I would have happily bought it back as I could have sold for nearer to £800 but the buyer gave me a sob story and my friend in Greece was desperate for the money.
The Judge made it clear that the "claimant" should pay for any inspection as they had not provided one although listed one as evidence? I will check last lot of paperwork from Court to see if it is an instruction or guidance. My concern is trying to claim money back from these people. If the Judge for some reason finds in their favour... surely this will rewrite the law books on "buyer beware" for private sales?
I cannot see that the claimant has a leg to stand on but there is still that uncomfortable feeling of doubt, had I done something wrong?
I know the Scenic drainage holes can block under the scuttle but this car has been sat in a dry garage... the "mate" said that this had been going on for sometime? It wasn't there when I showed them the storage areas and the car would have smelt of damp or misted up when the heating went on.... I am pissed because I spent so long going through the car with these people showing them everything and explaining how it all worked and they have behaved like this because of a flat battery! The water ingress has not been identified as an issue affecting the cars electrics, they have not sited any running issues with the car other than it had a flat battery... they haven't charged the battery or even attempted to find a fault if there is one? The buyer's father said that they inspected it a third time and decided they didn't want the car... no reason.. just changed their minds, then I started getting the letters. If it was my car and I had the money from it I would have happily bought it back as I could have sold for nearer to £800 but the buyer gave me a sob story and my friend in Greece was desperate for the money.
The Judge made it clear that the "claimant" should pay for any inspection as they had not provided one although listed one as evidence? I will check last lot of paperwork from Court to see if it is an instruction or guidance. My concern is trying to claim money back from these people. If the Judge for some reason finds in their favour... surely this will rewrite the law books on "buyer beware" for private sales?
I cannot see that the claimant has a leg to stand on but there is still that uncomfortable feeling of doubt, had I done something wrong?
Antj said:
also whenever you sell a car, i know its obvious but always do a receipt stating that sold as seen, no warranties given or implied etc etc. plenty of half decent templates.
Yes but reading the many similar threads like this one, the belief `sold as seen` doesnt mean anything if it doesnt live up to the description. Hence the mis sold act of 19XX.Please correct me if wrong as I often sell the odd car here and there.
In the future it's worth printing off an AA template for a private car sale which clearly states the car was sold as seen. Just about the only recourse a buyer has in a private sale is being missold- by keeping the advert factual it sounds like you have covered yourself there. Keep it simple: Make, model, mileage, colour and not a lot else.
I would personally refuse to contribute to the investigation costs, firstly as the judge said the claimant should pay but also I would point black refuse on the basis this investigation is being done a year after the car was sold and thus irrespective of how unbiased the report is, it will not be a true reflection of the condition of the car at the time it was sold and is thus immaterial.
I would ensure you save a copy of the advert as I believe this will end up being your most crucial piece of evidence.
Good luck
I would personally refuse to contribute to the investigation costs, firstly as the judge said the claimant should pay but also I would point black refuse on the basis this investigation is being done a year after the car was sold and thus irrespective of how unbiased the report is, it will not be a true reflection of the condition of the car at the time it was sold and is thus immaterial.
I would ensure you save a copy of the advert as I believe this will end up being your most crucial piece of evidence.
Good luck
It’s brinksmanship. If you don’t pay up, it looks like you’ve got something to hide and the court may well find in the plaintiff’s favour.
I’d strongly suspect the other side won’t pay but they are calling your bluff first. Say you’re fine with that and you’ll pay when the defendant has paid their half. The court action to date has cost practically nothing, if they can’t afford to tax a shed they won’t pay near 400 quid for this.
I’d strongly suspect the other side won’t pay but they are calling your bluff first. Say you’re fine with that and you’ll pay when the defendant has paid their half. The court action to date has cost practically nothing, if they can’t afford to tax a shed they won’t pay near 400 quid for this.
"sold as seen" is a myth, I remember that from my contract law days and degree. A receipt is just a confirmation that a transaction has taken place. Technically, if you are a plumber selling a car you can be deemed "a trader" and therefore the transaction does come under sale of goods acts. I have one foot, work as a volunteer for age UK and claim ESA.. If I am a trader, I am not a very successful one by selling one car a year for less than it's true worth? I know the ins and outs of contract law and legislation.. which all works when you are dealing with reasonably minded people. It all goes to s&@t when you come up against peeps that claim up is down and the sky is green! That's when I get nervous.
My honesty is my sword.. it's the only constant I stand by, it has got me into trouble in the past and I am the first to raise my hand if I am wrong.
My honesty is my sword.. it's the only constant I stand by, it has got me into trouble in the past and I am the first to raise my hand if I am wrong.
jm1489 said:
"sold as seen" is a myth, I remember that from my contract law days and degree. A receipt is just a confirmation that a transaction has taken place. Technically, if you are a plumber selling a car you can be deemed "a trader" and therefore the transaction does come under sale of goods acts. I have one foot, work as a volunteer for age UK and claim ESA.. If I am a trader, I am not a very successful one by selling one car a year for less than it's true worth? I know the ins and outs of contract law and legislation.. which all works when you are dealing with reasonably minded people. It all goes to s&@t when you come up against peeps that claim up is down and the sky is green! That's when I get nervous.
My honesty is my sword.. it's the only constant I stand by, it has got me into trouble in the past and I am the first to raise my hand if I am wrong.
It's not really a myth in private car sales.My honesty is my sword.. it's the only constant I stand by, it has got me into trouble in the past and I am the first to raise my hand if I am wrong.
Tell them to f
k off.I would also say you are prepared to cover cost of the assessment however
- It's been over a year since the sale
- Any number of things could have been done to the car in that time
- The cost of the assessment is more than the value of the car
- Private car sold as non-trader. Show a copy of the advert as well.
I think the pond-scum tend to sit at the sub £2k car bracket.
I've sold several higher value cars privately and never had any issues. I can imagine Facebook marketplace is full of "last price?" type people.
Legally you should be fine if it went to court. Just keep dates and details factual
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