Who's allowed to see a Will?
Discussion
A friend of mine is in a bit of a dither. A year ago her stepmother died, and as of today there's no sign of Probate. She doesn't know who the solicitor or Executor is; the only link is a tenuous one through her sister to a Trustee, but again, she has no details.
There are six children in total, three by her mother and three by her stepmother.
Her father's Will said that the house should go to all six children after his second wife died, but her Will could easily undo that, it seems. There is a house and a Trust, and the possibility of some shenanigans by the late stepmother to steer the inheritance towards her own three children. In the event that happens, and my friend finds herself disinherited, would the other three have any right to do a deed of variation? And if so, does it need to be started before Probate? I would imagine any dispute would be harder to resolve afterwards.
As a starting point I've suggested that my friend should try to to see her late stepmother's Will - but does she have any right to see it?
There are six children in total, three by her mother and three by her stepmother.
Her father's Will said that the house should go to all six children after his second wife died, but her Will could easily undo that, it seems. There is a house and a Trust, and the possibility of some shenanigans by the late stepmother to steer the inheritance towards her own three children. In the event that happens, and my friend finds herself disinherited, would the other three have any right to do a deed of variation? And if so, does it need to be started before Probate? I would imagine any dispute would be harder to resolve afterwards.
As a starting point I've suggested that my friend should try to to see her late stepmother's Will - but does she have any right to see it?
Afaik only the Executors / Solicitors can legally see a will before probate is done assuming one was found.
Post probate I think you can apply online to see a copy - assuming by then one of the Executor's hasn’t “ shared “ a copy.
Whether the Executors include Solicitors or not may also possibly play a part in your friends discovery
Deed of variations can be done up to 2 years post the death though even if probate has been done and the proceeds distributed.
I’m currently acting as Executor for a relative who left me half her estate but I signed a DOV fairly quickly as wanted my share to go to my children now and just wanted to get this part out of the way as my Solicitor suggested it was a good idea.
Post probate I think you can apply online to see a copy - assuming by then one of the Executor's hasn’t “ shared “ a copy.
Whether the Executors include Solicitors or not may also possibly play a part in your friends discovery
Deed of variations can be done up to 2 years post the death though even if probate has been done and the proceeds distributed.
I’m currently acting as Executor for a relative who left me half her estate but I signed a DOV fairly quickly as wanted my share to go to my children now and just wanted to get this part out of the way as my Solicitor suggested it was a good idea.
Thanks very much. We were trying to figure out a way to see the Will and possibly contest it asap in the thought that if Probate was granted everything would be done and dusted.
I think, though, that for a DoV to work, the beneficiaries have to agree to it, and they might well decline to hand over half their inheritances. I think it would be easier to get paid 'officially' from the Estate rather than try to lever money from individuals afterwards - would you concur? But in that case she'd need to see the Will before Probate because without that there's nothing to start a case from...
You can certainly get a copy of a Will online after Probate, as I've done it before.
I think, though, that for a DoV to work, the beneficiaries have to agree to it, and they might well decline to hand over half their inheritances. I think it would be easier to get paid 'officially' from the Estate rather than try to lever money from individuals afterwards - would you concur? But in that case she'd need to see the Will before Probate because without that there's nothing to start a case from...
You can certainly get a copy of a Will online after Probate, as I've done it before.
Simpo Two said:
Thanks very much. We were trying to figure out a way to see the Will and possibly contest it asap in the thought that if Probate was granted everything would be done and dusted.
I think, though, that for a DoV to work, the beneficiaries have to agree to it, and they might well decline to hand over half their inheritances. I think it would be easier to get paid 'officially' from the Estate rather than try to lever money from individuals afterwards - would you concur? But in that case she'd need to see the Will before Probate because without that there's nothing to start a case from...
Indeed - beneficiaries would absolutely have to agree. I think, though, that for a DoV to work, the beneficiaries have to agree to it, and they might well decline to hand over half their inheritances. I think it would be easier to get paid 'officially' from the Estate rather than try to lever money from individuals afterwards - would you concur? But in that case she'd need to see the Will before Probate because without that there's nothing to start a case from...
Getting the DOV successfully done now would also mean it comes from the estate officially so also has the potential IHT saving for the individual that signed - they of course many not see it the same way !
Obviously if multiple beneficiaries any one of them may or may not agree to hand something over without it affecting any of those that don’t want to.
In my case my sister was the other beneficiary who has no children and could do with the money now.
Eventually probate will be granted and the contents of the will become public knowledge for a small fee.
If the friend is named in the will and this has been ignored by the executors then the executors will be in an extremely precarious position and eventually your friend will receive what they are entitled to.
It would be a good idea to carefully examine the fathers will as it is possible that a trust from that will could apply regardless of what is stated in the step mothers will.
If the friend is not left anything in the step mothers will and the trust does not apply then this just means that the friend did not do enough to stay close and on good terms with the step mother and they are not entitled to any inheritance and such situations are extremely common in todays complicated and fragmented family arrangements.
There is no entitlement to view the will before probate but shock tactics of employing a solicitor to request a copy could work alternatively sweet talking someone who does have knowledge of the will could be worth a try. What have they got to lose?
It sounds as if the executors and step family are not cooperating so there is nothing to be lost by being a right pain in the ass to them.
To mix things up a bit raise a dispute with the probate office straightaway as this will complicate and delay everything for the executors and beneficiaries and they will likely want to show you will so that probate can proceed.
All the above is my lay persons understanding and I am not an expert. Good luck.
If the friend is named in the will and this has been ignored by the executors then the executors will be in an extremely precarious position and eventually your friend will receive what they are entitled to.
It would be a good idea to carefully examine the fathers will as it is possible that a trust from that will could apply regardless of what is stated in the step mothers will.
If the friend is not left anything in the step mothers will and the trust does not apply then this just means that the friend did not do enough to stay close and on good terms with the step mother and they are not entitled to any inheritance and such situations are extremely common in todays complicated and fragmented family arrangements.
There is no entitlement to view the will before probate but shock tactics of employing a solicitor to request a copy could work alternatively sweet talking someone who does have knowledge of the will could be worth a try. What have they got to lose?
It sounds as if the executors and step family are not cooperating so there is nothing to be lost by being a right pain in the ass to them.
To mix things up a bit raise a dispute with the probate office straightaway as this will complicate and delay everything for the executors and beneficiaries and they will likely want to show you will so that probate can proceed.
All the above is my lay persons understanding and I am not an expert. Good luck.
As another lay person would definitely agree with also looking into the Fathers will / potential trust comments as that will either give the steer as to what next or instead get you ready for any legal challenge. Stepmother could easily and legally have changed her own Will in favour of her 3 children especially if no such trust was ever formed.
Not sure you can just raise a random objection or comment at the probate office though especially if you are “ nothing “ to do with the will although maybe nothing to lose.
Having also been an executor on another estate where someone did object to the will and got a stop / caveat / challenge placed on probate via the courts just be warned that a legal challenge is neither quick or cheap.
Additionally if said challenge fails ( as it did in my example above when we “ won “ ) said challenger can get a ruling against themselves for up to 70% of the costs.
Not sure you can just raise a random objection or comment at the probate office though especially if you are “ nothing “ to do with the will although maybe nothing to lose.
Having also been an executor on another estate where someone did object to the will and got a stop / caveat / challenge placed on probate via the courts just be warned that a legal challenge is neither quick or cheap.
Additionally if said challenge fails ( as it did in my example above when we “ won “ ) said challenger can get a ruling against themselves for up to 70% of the costs.
Zeeky said:
If you don't know who the executors are you could apply to the probate registry for a caveat. The executors will contact you when they can't get probate granted.
This is the sort of thing I was suggesting. If the executors are not being cooperative then something to interrupt the probate process to make the executor engage with you. Simpo Two said:
Her father's Will said that the house should go to all six children after his second wife died, but her Will could easily undo that, it seems.
That's not a particularly unusual arrangement. It's known as giving the stepmother a `life interest'. If that's what he did then she can't undo it, or at least not without the agreement of all the beneficiaries.The first step would be to obtain a copy of the father's Will, so as to see whether or not he did actually create a life interest.
Pro Bono said:
That's not a particularly unusual arrangement. It's known as giving the stepmother a `life interest'. If that's what he did then she can't undo it, or at least not without the agreement of all the beneficiaries.
The first step would be to obtain a copy of the father's Will, so as to see whether or not he did actually create a life interest.
Yes, she has that. As it was recounted to me, his wife (stepmother) was left a life interest in the house, after which all six children were supposed to benefit. The house and some investments were in a trust. The stepmother later tried to break the trust but not all the children agreed. However she then changed solicitor, after apparently royally pissing off the incumbent, and sold £30Ks worth. There's still a trustee - a friend of the family it seems - but she doesn't have contact details.The first step would be to obtain a copy of the father's Will, so as to see whether or not he did actually create a life interest.
Would it be helpful to post it here (names removed) for the PH experts to dismantle? At present my friend doesn't know which solicitor is dealing with the case.
If that is true and the step-mother was left only a lifetime interest in the property then you need to find the trustee, who was probably the executor of the father's will. The problem is he or she may well be dead or moved away and unaware the step-mother has died.
I assume all 6 children were aware of this arrangement so it seems strange that someone hasn't got the ball rolling. Are the 3 step kids still local or at the other side of the world? Have you checked with land registry that the house is still indeed in the trust or solely registered to him. If the house was in joint names it would have automatically passed to the surviving spouse.
Obviously no-one can sell the house without probate. Who is currently living in the house? You may find the incumbent is 'dealing with things' and is in no hurry to lose rent-free accomodation!
I assume all 6 children were aware of this arrangement so it seems strange that someone hasn't got the ball rolling. Are the 3 step kids still local or at the other side of the world? Have you checked with land registry that the house is still indeed in the trust or solely registered to him. If the house was in joint names it would have automatically passed to the surviving spouse.
Obviously no-one can sell the house without probate. Who is currently living in the house? You may find the incumbent is 'dealing with things' and is in no hurry to lose rent-free accomodation!
konark said:
If that is true and the step-mother was left only a lifetime interest in the property then you need to find the trustee, who was probably the executor of the father's will. The problem is he or she may well be dead or moved away and unaware the step-mother has died.
I assume all 6 children were aware of this arrangement so it seems strange that someone hasn't got the ball rolling. Are the 3 step kids still local or at the other side of the world? Have you checked with land registry that the house is still indeed in the trust or solely registered to him. If the house was in joint names it would have automatically passed to the surviving spouse.
Obviously no-one can sell the house without probate. Who is currently living in the house? You may find the incumbent is 'dealing with things' and is in no hurry to lose rent-free accomodation!
There's a tenant apparently. Not sure where all the children live.I assume all 6 children were aware of this arrangement so it seems strange that someone hasn't got the ball rolling. Are the 3 step kids still local or at the other side of the world? Have you checked with land registry that the house is still indeed in the trust or solely registered to him. If the house was in joint names it would have automatically passed to the surviving spouse.
Obviously no-one can sell the house without probate. Who is currently living in the house? You may find the incumbent is 'dealing with things' and is in no hurry to lose rent-free accomodation!
Lots of very good points in the replies and we think we have a route to follow. The 'caveat' idea is nice but wouldn't we need to know which probate office?Slim chances perhaps, but worth trying. Thanks to everyone for the responses
Simpo Two said:
There's a tenant apparently. Not sure where all the children live.
Lots of very good points in the replies and we think we have a route to follow. The 'caveat' idea is nice but wouldn't we need to know which probate office?Slim chances perhaps, but worth trying. Thanks to everyone for the responses
Do it online.... just remember to update it every 6 months.Lots of very good points in the replies and we think we have a route to follow. The 'caveat' idea is nice but wouldn't we need to know which probate office?Slim chances perhaps, but worth trying. Thanks to everyone for the responses
https://www.gov.uk/stop-probate-application/apply-...
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-...
For the house ownership pay £3 to download a copy of the title register which could reveal some interesting info.
If the title register is not in the name of the seller or mentions a trust then no solicitor should allow the sale or purchase of the house without investigating the circumstances.
For the house ownership pay £3 to download a copy of the title register which could reveal some interesting info.
If the title register is not in the name of the seller or mentions a trust then no solicitor should allow the sale or purchase of the house without investigating the circumstances.
Well, I'm now in a position to round this up...
Probate was registered in January! But the deceased used an old surname which is why it wasn't found sooner. And so the Will is public domain and she's ordered a copy. The Trustee is a daughter of the deceased's last marriage and is in touch with my friend's sister, and all seems well. Whilst the interest in the house is probably lost to other children by subsequent Wills, the Trust continues and the Trustee knows that £30K taken from the Trust to pay for 'house repairs' (whilst on her watch) needs to go back.
As for tenants, the house is empty; the garage was converted to living accommodation for a carer who was allowed to stay rent free, but is probably gone by now as the house is going on the market soon. So there's no rent to worry about, and even if there was, it's outside the Trust which is probably the only thing my friend stands to gain from.
Many thanks to all who took the time to answer
Probate was registered in January! But the deceased used an old surname which is why it wasn't found sooner. And so the Will is public domain and she's ordered a copy. The Trustee is a daughter of the deceased's last marriage and is in touch with my friend's sister, and all seems well. Whilst the interest in the house is probably lost to other children by subsequent Wills, the Trust continues and the Trustee knows that £30K taken from the Trust to pay for 'house repairs' (whilst on her watch) needs to go back.
As for tenants, the house is empty; the garage was converted to living accommodation for a carer who was allowed to stay rent free, but is probably gone by now as the house is going on the market soon. So there's no rent to worry about, and even if there was, it's outside the Trust which is probably the only thing my friend stands to gain from.
Many thanks to all who took the time to answer
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