Speeding and Thresholds- Defence outside of NPCC

[James.Pond]

So friend has been caught doing 33 in 30 and online speeding group keep bringing up the guidelines

As I understand NPCC and NDORS (contract) guidelines or maybe a contractual requirement for latter require you 10% plus 2.My friend has been advised that Yorkshire Constab can't do them for 33 in 30. As I understand it thats not the case as they are guidelines only but this speeding group on facebook hang their hat so to speak on that and say it breaches NDORS contract.

So my take is 33 in 30 is speeding and if a force want to go after you thats up to them.

Or is this facebook group correct?

[MustangGT]

Legally, any speed above the limit is an offence and can be prosecuted. However, the guidelines (which nearly all, if not all, forces have signed up to) gives a leeway of 10% + 1 mph where prosecution is exceedingly unlikely, nobody has yet proved a prosecution within this threshold.

Prosecution at speeds of 10% = 2 mph will happen.

[Mammasaid]

As Mustang said the guidelines say prosecution should not happen until 10% +2 mph, i.e. 34 mph = No proceedings, 35 mph + = Proceedings.

However, and this is something that has occurred many times over the years, no-one has been able to show a NIP under the 10% +2.

Surely your 'friend' should be able to show the NIP was 33 mph, or was it actually 35?

[LosingGrip]

Or was it a 20 limit?

[2020vision]

James.Pond said:

So friend has been caught doing 33 in 30 and online speeding group keep bringing up the guidelines

As I understand NPCC and NDORS (contract) guidelines or maybe a contractual requirement for latter require you 10% plus 2.My friend has been advised that Yorkshire Constab can't do them for 33 in 30. As I understand it thats not the case as they are guidelines only but this speeding group on facebook hang their hat so to speak on that and say it breaches NDORS contract.

So my take is 33 in 30 is speeding and if a force want to go after you thats up to them.

Or is this facebook group correct?

This must be the most popular subject on this forum. It has been discussed so many times I am surprised that there is still confusion. Perhaps it is because so many are willing to advise but don't really know themselves.

NPCC adopted the ACPO Speed Enforcement Guidelines and have never updated it in the existence of NPCC. That is because they are satisfied with the guidance as it stands.

NDORS have little to do with any enforcement guidance, however, courses are mentioned in the NPCC guidance. The guidance is that it is expected that enforcement of the speed limit will commence as soon as speeds of "The speed limit +10% +2 mph" is reached. Also a Speed Awareness Course can be offered at those thresholds.

The same guidance, possibly parts nobody ever bothers to read is that the lowest speeds that can be enforced are at the limits of accuracy of Home Office Type Approved speedmeters. This is +2 mph up to 66 mph, then +3% above 66 mph.

So enforcement at 33 mph in a 30 mph speed limit is allowed, should the officer deem that there are circumstances that justify such enforcement. Enforcement at 32 mph is not allowed because of the tolerance allowed in the proof of accuracy in type approval testing.

You will not normally be getting an offer of a Speed Awareness Course at 33 mph or 34 mph in a 30 mph speed limit, because the guidance is that they commence at 35 mph. Note the words "normally" and "guidance", but it is not likely to vary.

Hopefully that is an unambiguous explanation of the issue. I can't think of a simpler way of putting it.

Mammasaid said:

As Mustang said the guidelines say prosecution should not happen until 10% +2 mph, i.e. 34 mph = No proceedings, 35 mph + = Proceedings.

However, and this is something that has occurred many times over the years, no-one has been able to show a NIP under the 10% +2.

Surely your 'friend' should be able to show the NIP was 33 mph, or was it actually 35?

They say nothing of the sort.


Edited to add ACPO’s words:
9.7
These guidelines do not and cannot replace police officer's discretion. Where an officer decides to issue a summons or a fixed penalty notice in respect of offences committed at speeds lower than those set out in the table, he or she must consider the tolerances of the equipment used to corroborate their opinion. Police speed equipment are tested and approved to work with a maximum tolerance of +/-2mph up to 66mph and 3% for all speeds higher than 66mph, so it is possible to use these tolerances as a prosecution threshold. Moreover, in particular circumstances, driving at speeds lower than the legal limit may result in prosecution for other offences, for example dangerous driving or driving without due care and attention when the speed is inappropriate and inherently unsafe.

Edited by 2020vision on Wednesday 21st May 10:27

[martinbiz]

2020vision said:

They say nothing of the sort.

Explain

[2020vision]

martinbiz said:

Explain

No

[ScoobyChris]

2020vision said:

You will not normally be getting an offer of a Speed Awareness Course at 33 mph or 34 mph in a 30 mph speed limit, because the guidance is that they commence at 35 mph. Note the words "normally" and "guidance", but it is not likely to vary.

Might have missed this, but if you are not eligible for a course (because you haven't met the threshold) do you receive a standard 3 points/£100 fixed penalty, even though you also haven't met the guidelines for the FPN where a course is not appropriate either, or the officer has discretion on how to proceed?

Chris

[James.Pond]

ScoobyChris said:

Might have missed this, but if you are not eligible for a course (because you haven't met the threshold) do you receive a standard 3 points/£100 fixed penalty, even though you also haven't met the guidelines for the FPN where a course is not appropriate either, or the officer has discretion on how to proceed?

Chris

I think the key issue they don't offer a course anyway until the Sect 172 has been complied with and the Driver Identified.

[2020vision]

ScoobyChris said:

Might have missed this, but if you are not eligible for a course (because you haven't met the threshold) do you receive a standard 3 points/£100 fixed penalty, even though you also haven't met the guidelines for the FPN where a course is not appropriate either, or the officer has discretion on how to proceed?

Chris

Officer discretion yes. That’s what the guidance says, see my post above.

[2020vision]

James.Pond said:

ScoobyChris said:

Might have missed this, but if you are not eligible for a course (because you haven't met the threshold) do you receive a standard 3 points/£100 fixed penalty, even though you also haven't met the guidelines for the FPN where a course is not appropriate either, or the officer has discretion on how to proceed?

Chris

I think the key issue they don't offer a course anyway until the Sect 172 has been complied with and the Driver Identified.

What has that got to do with the thresholds and courses?

[ARHarh]

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

[E-bmw]

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

[2020vision]

E-bmw said:

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

You are expecting ARHarh to have read the words in the thread. Come on now!

[ARHarh]

2020vision said:

E-bmw said:

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

You are expecting ARHarh to have read the words in the thread. Come on now!

He will still have paperwork showing the offence even if he did not get a nip in the post. Unless the op is on half term.

[Tommo87]

2020vision said:

E-bmw said:

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

You are expecting ARHarh to have read the words in the thread. Come on now!

Reminds me of the cyclists threads, where someone always mentions that nobody has mentioned road tax - just so they can start an argument over it.

[2020vision]

E-bmw said:

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

You are expecting ARHarh to have read the words in the thread. Come on now!

[E-bmw]

2020vision said:

E-bmw said:

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

You are expecting ARHarh to have read the words in the thread. Come on now!

Good point.

[Freddie Fitch]

E-bmw said:

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

But first line of first post:
"friend has been caught doing 33 in 30"
Presumably there is some paperwork. If this happened.

[2020vision]

Freddie Fitch said:

E-bmw said:

ARHarh said:

Has no one asked for proof of this NIP yet. This is normally the case with these threads.

It hasn't happened till we see copy of the NIP.

That could be because the OP did not mention an NIP.

But first line of first post:
"friend has been caught doing 33 in 30"
Presumably there is some paperwork. If this happened.

Not necessarily. Police don't give paperwork out when they stop someone for speeding.