Ground 1 Schedule 2 of the Housing Act

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

I didn't want to derail the section 21 thread so I thought I would start another. Basically my tenants have been renting my property for 8 years, the first year was on the 12 month rental agreement, and the past seven years has been on a monthly periodic lease.

I would like to gain possesion of my property and was considering using a section 21 before they are abolished by the new Renters Right act.

However, reading my tenancy agreement I spotted the 'Notice of Grounds for possesion Ground one" states

Take notice that the landlord has at some time before the begining of the proposed tenancy occupied the dwelling as his only or principle residence OR may in due course require the dwelling house house as his or his spouse's principle home AND THAT IN EITHER EVENT possesion of the dwelling house known as (address of property) may be recovered on Ground 1 Schedule 2 of the housing act 1988

This has been signed by the tenants.

So is it possible to move back into my property using this clause and what would the process be? I have a council tax bill in my name before the tenants moved in if that is any help?

[Furbo]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

I didn't want to derail the section 21 thread so I thought I would start another. Basically my tenants have been renting my property for 8 years, the first year was on the 12 month rental agreement, and the past seven years has been on a monthly periodic lease.

I would like to gain possesion of my property and was considering using a section 21 before they are abolished by the new Renters Right act.

However, reading my tenancy agreement I spotted the 'Notice of Grounds for possesion Ground one" states

Take notice that the landlord has at some time before the begining of the proposed tenancy occupied the dwelling as his only or principle residence OR may in due course require the dwelling house house as his or his spouse's principle home AND THAT IN EITHER EVENT possesion of the dwelling house known as (address of property) may be recovered on Ground 1 Schedule 2 of the housing act 1988

This has been signed by the tenants.

So is it possible to move back into my property using this clause and what would the process be? I have a council tax bill in my name before the tenants moved in if that is any help?

Ground 1, section 8. Two months notice minimum. You have to have told them before the tenancy started that you may rely upon this ground. You have complied.

It's a mandatory ground if it goes to court. But the tenant can frustrate it with a counter-claim.

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

Furbo said:

Ground 1, section 8. Two months notice minimum. You have to have told them before the tenancy started that you may rely upon this ground. You have complied.

It's a mandatory ground if it goes to court. But the tenant can frustrate it with a counter-claim.

Yes, this is all in the lease contract and is signed by the tenants. I noticed this document also contains the gas safety certificate and the EPC.

Would this be a better path to go down than a section 21?

[Furbo]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

Furbo said:

Ground 1, section 8. Two months notice minimum. You have to have told them before the tenancy started that you may rely upon this ground. You have complied.

It's a mandatory ground if it goes to court. But the tenant can frustrate it with a counter-claim.

Yes, this is all in the lease contract and is signed by the tenants. I noticed this document also contains the gas safety certificate and the EPC.

Would this be a better path to go down than a section 21?

I don't know. IANAL and it's a long time since I've dealt with ASTs.

But IIRC they can try to frustrate a S.21 too.

AFAIK there is no reason why you cannot serve both. But if you're into the realms of a tenant counter-claiming you'll need a solicitor.

If it were me, I'd pick up the phone first and tell them you want to move back in. Don't want the S.21/8 to come as a surprise. Will be flexible. Good reference etc etc.

[MustangGT]

Have you spoken to your tenants about wanting the house back at all?

[blindspot]

Don’t overthink it. Just issue S21 no later than 1630hrs the day before the commencement date (to be determined).

Provided of course mandatory docs were issued, you’ll get possession. Probably the TTs will just leave on receipt of notice.

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

MustangGT said:

Have you spoken to your tenants about wanting the house back at all?

I spoke to the letting agent yesterday, the first thing he said was "If they were paying market rent, would you reconsider". This massively pissed me off as I have badly advised in the 8 years they have been there and due to lack of rent increases they are around £300 behind market rates.

Anyway, I told him that I would still like the property back and he is going to let the tenants know.

Fingers crossed they just move out, but as they are used to paying £300 under market value and there is nothing similar out there I suspect they will dig their heels in.

[andburg]

question as its not clear from what you're written:

Are you wanting to move back into the house to live or are you just looking to move back in so you can get the tenants out then put it back on the market with new tenants, new agreement and increased rates?

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

andburg said:

question as its not clear from what you're written:

Are you wanting to move back into the house to live or are you just looking to move back in so you can get the tenants out then put it back on the market with new tenants, new agreement and increased rates?

I want to move back in, renovate it and then sell it. I have zero interest in being a landlord ever again.

[andburg]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

andburg said:

question as its not clear from what you're written:

Are you wanting to move back into the house to live or are you just looking to move back in so you can get the tenants out then put it back on the market with new tenants, new agreement and increased rates?

I want to move back in, renovate it and then sell it. I have zero interest in being a landlord ever again.

okay, means nothing to be but i expect making your aim clear will help those with knowledge

have you asked them if they'd like to buy the property?

Edited by andburg on Thursday 6th November 14:24

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

So surprise, surpise despite chasing the agent I have still heard nothing back. To be honest this has been the story for the last 8 years, imposible to get hold of, never reply to emails and never answer the phone. I have zero confidence in them not messing this up, or dragging it out for way longer than necessary.

I am very tempted to instruct Landlord Action (run by Paul Shamplina from Nightmare Tenants, slum landlords) to do this instead, they charge £345 to serve a section 21 notice. The big advantage is they have done it thousands of times before, I will easily be able to get hold of them and I am sure they will keep me informed along the way. Plus if it ends up going to court I am sure they are going to advise me a lot better and go to court on my behalf.

Anyone used a professional company to serve a Section 21 in the past or used Landlord Action?

[OIC]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

andburg said:

question as its not clear from what you're written:

Are you wanting to move back into the house to live or are you just looking to move back in so you can get the tenants out then put it back on the market with new tenants, new agreement and increased rates?

I want to move back in, renovate it and then sell it. I have zero interest in being a landlord ever again.

Save yourself a lot of time, effort, stress and money by offering to sell to the tenants for a sensibly discounted price.

I'd go round with a bottle of wine and have a chat.

After 8 years they already see the house as theirs anyway.

[Furbo]

OIC said:

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

andburg said:

question as its not clear from what you're written:

Are you wanting to move back into the house to live or are you just looking to move back in so you can get the tenants out then put it back on the market with new tenants, new agreement and increased rates?

I want to move back in, renovate it and then sell it. I have zero interest in being a landlord ever again.

Save yourself a lot of time, effort, stress and money by offering to sell to the tenants for a sensibly discounted price.

I'd go round with a bottle of wine and have a chat.

After 8 years they already see the house as theirs anyway.

I would not take the bottle of wine, unless I was planning to beat them into submission with it, if they did not accede to my demands. It looks cheesy and like you need to bribe them.

[cptsideways]

OIC said:

Save yourself a lot of time, effort, stress and money by offering to sell to the tenants for a sensibly discounted price.

I'd go round with a bottle of wine and have a chat.

After 8 years they already see the house as theirs anyway.

This honestly is the best advice, you'll spend probably 50k doing it up, half a year or more of hassle and stress & the new owners will change it all anyway. Do the maths have a figure in mind, all them what they might be able to offer, and see what they say.

[Furbo]

cptsideways said:

OIC said:

Save yourself a lot of time, effort, stress and money by offering to sell to the tenants for a sensibly discounted price.

I'd go round with a bottle of wine and have a chat.

After 8 years they already see the house as theirs anyway.

This honestly is the best advice, you'll spend probably 50k doing it up, half a year or more of hassle and stress & the new owners will change it all anyway. Do the maths have a figure in mind, all them what they might be able to offer, and see what they say.

Tenants are usually tenants for a reason. Trying to sell a house to one is like trying to sell a car to a cyclist.

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

Furbo said:

Tenants are usually tenants for a reason. Trying to sell a house to one is like trying to sell a car to a cyclist.

Exactly this, if they had the money they could have bought the identical house next door which was for sale six months ago.

I certainly will not be going around at all, let alone with a bottle of wine.

As for spending £50k renovating, you are having a laugh. My brother is in the trade, and my father and I are pretty handy.

A section 21 has to get them out eventually, even if it does go to court. People don't just stay in other people's houses forever.

[Furbo]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

Furbo said:

Tenants are usually tenants for a reason. Trying to sell a house to one is like trying to sell a car to a cyclist.

Exactly this, if they had the money they could have bought the identical house next door which was for sale six months ago.

I certainly will not be going around at all, let alone with a bottle of wine.

As for spending £50k renovating, you are having a laugh. My brother is in the trade, and my father and I are pretty handy.

A section 21 has to get them out eventually, even if it does go to court. People don't just stay in other people's houses forever.

Whilst I wouldn't be breaking out the Pinot, I find that going round and speaking personally IS a good strategy.

Most people are reasonable and if you are along the lines of: "Guys, sorry about this, but I need the house back BECAUSE (Insert genuine reason here) they will cooperate IF THEY HAVE AN OPTION. Serve the S.21 once you've told them verbally that it is coming.

[santona1937]

I am currently a tenant in nearly the same situation. We have been renting this house for 7 years. We are way underpaying local average rent. We have a very good landlord who does all the right stuff, and who considers this house to be our home. If he wants the house back, for any reason, he can come round and chat to us. There might be a number of options, timing, sell house with tenant in situ etc. As it happens A) this house is slightly too small for us and B) we are in the midst of searching for a house to buy. We had sold a house prior to renting, and it was supposed to be only for a year or so. If I was a landlord I would speak to them, work out timings agreeable, get it all in writing and proceed

[Cyberprog]

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

Exactly this, if they had the money they could have bought the identical house next door which was for sale six months ago.

I certainly will not be going around at all, let alone with a bottle of wine.

As for spending £50k renovating, you are having a laugh. My brother is in the trade, and my father and I are pretty handy.

A section 21 has to get them out eventually, even if it does go to court. People don't just stay in other people's houses forever.

How up to date are you with gas safety etc. and were all the right certificates in place at the start of the tenancy? There's a bit of a checklist you can find for S21's and if you don't have all your ducks in a row then you'll discover that they are, in fact, squirrels and they are at a rave.

And then your S21 will fail. If your paperwork is perfect then you'll be OK, but don't approach it without it being so.

[ThingsBehindTheSun]

Cyberprog said:

ThingsBehindTheSun said:

Exactly this, if they had the money they could have bought the identical house next door which was for sale six months ago.

I certainly will not be going around at all, let alone with a bottle of wine.

As for spending £50k renovating, you are having a laugh. My brother is in the trade, and my father and I are pretty handy.

A section 21 has to get them out eventually, even if it does go to court. People don't just stay in other people's houses forever.

How up to date are you with gas safety etc. and were all the right certificates in place at the start of the tenancy? There's a bit of a checklist you can find for S21's and if you don't have all your ducks in a row then you'll discover that they are, in fact, squirrels and they are at a rave.

And then your S21 will fail. If your paperwork is perfect then you'll be OK, but don't approach it without it being so.

The property has been managed by an agent for the last 8 years. I have seen a copy of the initial gas safety certificate which was performed before they moved in as part of the initial signed contract document. The gas certificate has been done every year, the next one is due imminently or may even have been done this week.

Deposit was registererd etc.

I think all is good on the documentation front. After speaking with my ex wife who used to be a letting agent, she thought the best approach was just to pay Lamdlord Action £345 and let them get on with it. It is impossible to speak with my agent, I am constantly chasing them so £345 for it to be done properly might be the best money I have ever spent.