Enduring Power of Attorney validity
Discussion
Please mods nove this if it’s not the correct forum - I don’t think there is a specific legal forum.
Presenting an old style Enduring Power of Attorney to the bank - they are refusing to accept it as each page hasn’t been countersigned.
AI tells me this is not a requirement but I can’t find any uk.gov documents that mention either way. The solicitor that did it 20 years ago have merged with another.
What are my options? It could be that the bank aren’t familiar with the older EPAs (I believe LPAs do need to be countersigned) - I had issues presenting one for my mum a few years ago. Should they be accepting it?
If it’s invalid is it possible to get the original solicitors to validate at their cost, or does it need to be a whole new document?
Presenting an old style Enduring Power of Attorney to the bank - they are refusing to accept it as each page hasn’t been countersigned.
AI tells me this is not a requirement but I can’t find any uk.gov documents that mention either way. The solicitor that did it 20 years ago have merged with another.
What are my options? It could be that the bank aren’t familiar with the older EPAs (I believe LPAs do need to be countersigned) - I had issues presenting one for my mum a few years ago. Should they be accepting it?
If it’s invalid is it possible to get the original solicitors to validate at their cost, or does it need to be a whole new document?
Iirc the old style EPA's were replaced by LPA's from around 2007 and assuming issued correctly are still valid.
Its quite possible that whomever you spoke to has never dealt with one before ?!
Assuming issued correctly and not a copy they do not need to be countersigned.
If a copy then every page ( weren't EPA's considerably shorter than the current LPA's ?) does need to be countersigned but that shouldn't be an issue for any Solicitor to do providing they can also see the original.
I do seem to recall also that they don't need registering prior use with the OPG unless the donor has actually lost capacity which is when they can be used from unless any conditions specify otherwise.
Its quite possible that whomever you spoke to has never dealt with one before ?!
Assuming issued correctly and not a copy they do not need to be countersigned.
If a copy then every page ( weren't EPA's considerably shorter than the current LPA's ?) does need to be countersigned but that shouldn't be an issue for any Solicitor to do providing they can also see the original.
I do seem to recall also that they don't need registering prior use with the OPG unless the donor has actually lost capacity which is when they can be used from unless any conditions specify otherwise.
alscar said:
Iirc the old style EPA's were replaced by LPA's from around 2007 and assuming issued correctly are still valid.
Its quite possible that whomever you spoke to has never dealt with one before ?!
Assuming issued correctly and not a copy they do not need to be countersigned.
If a copy then every page ( weren't EPA's considerably shorter than the current LPA's ?) does need to be countersigned but that shouldn't be an issue for any Solicitor to do providing they can also see the original.
I do seem to recall also that they don't need registering prior use with the OPG unless the donor has actually lost capacity which is when they can be used from unless any conditions specify otherwise.
This all makes sense.Its quite possible that whomever you spoke to has never dealt with one before ?!
Assuming issued correctly and not a copy they do not need to be countersigned.
If a copy then every page ( weren't EPA's considerably shorter than the current LPA's ?) does need to be countersigned but that shouldn't be an issue for any Solicitor to do providing they can also see the original.
I do seem to recall also that they don't need registering prior use with the OPG unless the donor has actually lost capacity which is when they can be used from unless any conditions specify otherwise.
I had a (countersigned) copy of my mum s EPA and the bank did accept it but they were a bit sniffy about it not being an LPA. I eventually got an LPA for her although it seemed academic by that stage, and in any case she died a month before it came through.
I am not sure whether this is an original or not (my wife is presenting it). So frustrating. I am sure the solicitor will want to charge for signing it which seems rather sharp practice if it should have been in the frst place.
However, if it is an original document and not a copy (not sure how this would be obvious) then the bank should be accepting?
jeremyc said:
Thanks - I had a cursory glance through this earlier but couldn’t find any reference to countersigning. I wonder if it’s just the thing about copied docs needed a signature. My mum’s was a terrible photocopy with ink solicitor’s signatures on each page. Not sure what this one looks like as it’s not in front of me.I am assuming your wife tried to present in person.
I think I would go back and ask for someone more senior.
If a copy ( I’ve never had to use an EPA ) so not sure what the original looks like but I’m guessing as it’s only a few days pages it would be cheap enough to get countersigned.
I would actually get a few countersigned.
I got 5 copies of the much lengthier LPA countersigned last year by a random firm of solicitors who agreed to do in their lunch hour for £50.
One last tip - if your wife is having issues with the bank then it’s quite possible they have a dept that deals with this.
When I needed to gain control of mum’s bank accounts I visited lloyds and they were able to phone and sort there and then.
I think I would go back and ask for someone more senior.
If a copy ( I’ve never had to use an EPA ) so not sure what the original looks like but I’m guessing as it’s only a few days pages it would be cheap enough to get countersigned.
I would actually get a few countersigned.
I got 5 copies of the much lengthier LPA countersigned last year by a random firm of solicitors who agreed to do in their lunch hour for £50.
One last tip - if your wife is having issues with the bank then it’s quite possible they have a dept that deals with this.
When I needed to gain control of mum’s bank accounts I visited lloyds and they were able to phone and sort there and then.
Yes she had an appointment at the bank to sort it this morning. Coincidentally she’s in the same place where the merged-with solicitor is based so she has gone in to see what they suggest. I do feel that if the document required countersigning they should have done it when it was set up 20 years ago!
My main concern is that it can be salvaged and we don’t have to apply separately for an LPA which will need to the be registered etc.
My main concern is that it can be salvaged and we don’t have to apply separately for an LPA which will need to the be registered etc.
NiceCupOfTea said:
Yes she had an appointment at the bank to sort it this morning. Coincidentally she s in the same place where the merged-with solicitor is based so she has gone in to see what they suggest. I do feel that if the document required countersigning they should have done it when it was set up 20 years ago!
My main concern is that it can be salvaged and we don t have to apply separately for an LPA which will need to the be registered etc.
Yup - that would be the worst case option which I hope won't be needed. My main concern is that it can be salvaged and we don t have to apply separately for an LPA which will need to the be registered etc.
OK they have told my wife that they need a phone call from the person concerned if they are mentally with it and they will release the original document. If not, then they can register it.
I thought the whole point with an EPA is that it doesn’t need registering? I didn’t have to register my mum’s.
This is so frustrating as bills need paying now!
I thought the whole point with an EPA is that it doesn’t need registering? I didn’t have to register my mum’s.
This is so frustrating as bills need paying now!
NiceCupOfTea said:
OK they have told my wife that they need a phone call from the person concerned if they are mentally with it and they will release the original document. If not, then they can register it.
I thought the whole point with an EPA is that it doesn t need registering? I didn t have to register my mum s.
This is so frustrating as bills need paying now!
I think technically the bank is correct in that if the donor still has mental capacity then they can say its fine and job done.I thought the whole point with an EPA is that it doesn t need registering? I didn t have to register my mum s.
This is so frustrating as bills need paying now!
If they cannot then it does need registering which is one reason why they were changed to LPA's which once issued are far more flexible.
I almost hate to ask but can the donor give phone approval ?
I had this with my father who had an EPA, it was a faff to get it registered with the bank, as like you they said it hadn't been counter signed.
the solicitor the drew up the EPA, just created what they called I think - A solicitor verified copy of it and each page of that was signed by the solicitor that drew it up.
The bank accepted that copy but their process to register the EPA took some time and by I got verification it was registered the day my father died as it took an age to process it.
If it is useful info, for my mum we are in the process of creating the relevant LPA's and then just cancelling the EPA, you can do most of it online, setup the LPA in March and the signed copy with the code that I need to register it came through yesterday.
best of luck
the solicitor the drew up the EPA, just created what they called I think - A solicitor verified copy of it and each page of that was signed by the solicitor that drew it up.
The bank accepted that copy but their process to register the EPA took some time and by I got verification it was registered the day my father died as it took an age to process it.
If it is useful info, for my mum we are in the process of creating the relevant LPA's and then just cancelling the EPA, you can do most of it online, setup the LPA in March and the signed copy with the code that I need to register it came through yesterday.
best of luck
NiceCupOfTea said:
OK they have told my wife that they need a phone call from the person concerned if they are mentally with it and they will release the original document. If not, then they can register it.
I thought the whole point with an EPA is that it doesn t need registering? I didn t have to register my mum s.
This is so frustrating as bills need paying now!
The 'owner' signs it while they are still compos mentis, but it stays dormant until they go bonkers when you get a solicitor to register it which makes the bonkerdom official. Then it's active and you can take over finances and healthcare. At least that's how it worked for me.I thought the whole point with an EPA is that it doesn t need registering? I didn t have to register my mum s.
This is so frustrating as bills need paying now!
Apols for the terminology but you get the idea.
Thanks for the replies. I’m confused about the epa needing registering as my mums didn’t, although it had been countersigned. I know that lpas need registering.
Currently it wouldn’t be possible for the person to make a phone call. Whilst they were absolutely fine 10 days ago they have had an accident at home and are not themselves mentally at the moment. The jury is out on whether this is due to the accident or the trauma of the accident, or whether it was possibly the cause in part. They have life changing injuries, hospital is focused on this rather than anything mental. Meanwhile bills need paying!
Currently it wouldn’t be possible for the person to make a phone call. Whilst they were absolutely fine 10 days ago they have had an accident at home and are not themselves mentally at the moment. The jury is out on whether this is due to the accident or the trauma of the accident, or whether it was possibly the cause in part. They have life changing injuries, hospital is focused on this rather than anything mental. Meanwhile bills need paying!
From memory and I might not be 100% correct
You can use the EPA unregistered with the office of public guardian, whilst the person who the EPA is for has the mental / cognitive powers to understand what you are doing and why. You can register your EPA with banks etc whilst its unregistered witth office of the public guardian and it will allow you to act on behalf of the person who the EPA is for.
However, if their mental state declines and they can no longer make decisions for themselves or they don't have the cognitive power to understand what you are doing if you are acting on their behalf, then you must register the EPA with the office of the public guardian
That's how our solicitor explained things to me, but like I said I might not be correct, so I would make sure you get some proper advice, or do your own research.
Theres more info here
https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties
You can use the EPA unregistered with the office of public guardian, whilst the person who the EPA is for has the mental / cognitive powers to understand what you are doing and why. You can register your EPA with banks etc whilst its unregistered witth office of the public guardian and it will allow you to act on behalf of the person who the EPA is for.
However, if their mental state declines and they can no longer make decisions for themselves or they don't have the cognitive power to understand what you are doing if you are acting on their behalf, then you must register the EPA with the office of the public guardian
That's how our solicitor explained things to me, but like I said I might not be correct, so I would make sure you get some proper advice, or do your own research.
Theres more info here
https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties
Edited by fizzwheel on Thursday 7th May 19:42
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