Box junction - checklist if I get a ticket?

[donkmeister]

I am likely to get a box junction ticket... It was stupid, I went before my exit was clear; the traffic ahead was pulling away, I moved, and some knob changed lanes into mine a couple of cars ahead so the space that was going to open up didn't. There was a CCTV camera and a quick Google reveals the council there is renowned for being cash grabbing bds.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of "ooh bang to rights, pay up y'knob" responses. If you wish, have at it. But the cretinous driving I had to endure in the rest of that town makes me feel a little aggrieved at paying for a box junction encroachment on the way out, that didn't inconvenience anybody and wouldn't have happened if someone else hadn't been a knob.

So, what is the course of action to maximise the odds of winning an appeal? Appeal on the grounds of someone preventing my exit clearing? Look up the regulations on box junctions and find some nitpicking reason why it's not compliant? Appeal to their sense of humanity with a "sorry, I don't know those parts, won't happen again honest"?

[127Sport]

If the knob also ended up stopped in the box in front of you, you are probably bang to rights as he's in the place you'd have stopped. But if he clears the box into the unboxed bit of road you'd have made it into, leaving you marooned in the box, then any ticket you receive should be annulled on appeal. IMHO.

[timbo999]

As long as your exit was clear when you entered the box you're OK... but I suspect not?

[martin_t]

donkmeister said:

So, what is the course of action to maximise the odds of winning an appeal? Appeal on the grounds of someone preventing my exit clearing? Look up the regulations on box junctions and find some nitpicking reason why it's not compliant? Appeal to their sense of humanity with a "sorry, I don't know those parts, won't happen again honest"?

The offence is not entering when your exit isn't clear, it's 'causing a vehicle to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles' (ish - don't quote me).

However, I've seen several like yours thrown out after the victim consulted the experts on www.ftla.uk/. I've not seen one fail, either.

Don't lodge an appeal before asking there as you'll be at risk of making a wrong move.

[donkmeister]

martin_t said:

donkmeister said:

So, what is the course of action to maximise the odds of winning an appeal? Appeal on the grounds of someone preventing my exit clearing? Look up the regulations on box junctions and find some nitpicking reason why it's not compliant? Appeal to their sense of humanity with a "sorry, I don't know those parts, won't happen again honest"?

The offence is not entering when your exit isn't clear, it's 'causing a vehicle to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles' (ish - don't quote me).

However, I've seen several like yours thrown out after the victim consulted the experts on www.ftla.uk/. I've not seen one fail, either.

Don't lodge an appeal before asking there as you'll be at risk of making a wrong move.

Thank you! That's useful information and a handy link.

In mitigation I've spent nearly 30 years driving in London and several other cities, including car-hating Cambridge and Bristol, without ever getting caught out by one. Then one visit to a medium sized county town and here I am now

[donkmeister]

127Sport said:

If the knob also ended up stopped in the box in front of you, you are probably bang to rights as he's in the place you'd have stopped. But if he clears the box into the unboxed bit of road you'd have made it into, leaving you marooned in the box, then any ticket you receive should be annulled on appeal. IMHO.

That's the tricky bit - I moved when I shouldn't have. The traffic ahead started moving, I crawled onto the box anticipating the van in front of me would move, but a couple of cars ahead of him some thoughtful soul let someone in front of them from another lane.

[Mandat]

martin_t said:

The offence is not entering when your exit isn't clear, it's 'causing a vehicle to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles' (ish - don't quote me)

You've got that bit the wrong way round.

You can stop in the yellow box for as long as you want, as long as your exit is clear when you enter.

[Mandat]

donkmeister said:

I am likely to get a box junction ticket... It was stupid, I went before my exit was clear; the traffic ahead was pulling away, I moved, and some knob changed lanes into mine a couple of cars ahead so the space that was going to open up didn't. There was a CCTV camera and a quick Google reveals the council there is renowned for being cash grabbing bds.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of "ooh bang to rights, pay up y'knob" responses. If you wish, have at it. But the cretinous driving I had to endure in the rest of that town makes me feel a little aggrieved at paying for a box junction encroachment on the way out, that didn't inconvenience anybody and wouldn't have happened if someone else hadn't been a knob.

So, what is the course of action to maximise the odds of winning an appeal? Appeal on the grounds of someone preventing my exit clearing? Look up the regulations on box junctions and find some nitpicking reason why it's not compliant? Appeal to their sense of humanity with a "sorry, I don't know those parts, won't happen again honest"?

The Yellow Box Guru is your man.

https://www.yellowboxes.co.uk/

[johnao]

Mandat said:

martin_t said:

The offence is not entering when your exit isn't clear, it's 'causing a vehicle to stop within the box due to the presence of stationary vehicles' (ish - don't quote me)

You've got that bit the wrong way round.

You can stop in the yellow box for as long as you want, as long as your exit is clear when you enter.

No you can’t. Martin’s post is correct. The Highway Code is misleading in this regard.

[aterribleusername]

Could be worse. I got done in one in Cardiff after I did everything right, waited for my exit to be clear and moved across the box cleanly and joined the queue the other side with the rear of my car clear of the box. What if forgotten about was the bike rack on my towbar stuck out just enough to still be in the box. The had a camera looking at my rear for the number plate and one looking down showing the rack still in the box.

By 2 inches. I know this as it was the width of the light unit. £35 fine for that.

[Mandat]

johnao said:

No you can t. Martin s post is correct. The Highway Code is misleading in this regard.

I haven't referenced the highway code. The actual law states: a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

From the Yellow Box Guru site I linked above,

Yellow Box Guru said:

Essentially stopping for any reason other than "stationary vehicles" is not an offence. Adjudicators have taken this to the extreme to note it could even include "to light a pipe", "read a book" or "admire the view"

[Mandat]

aterribleusername said:

Could be worse. I got done in one in Cardiff after I did everything right, waited for my exit to be clear and moved across the box cleanly and joined the queue the other side with the rear of my car clear of the box. What if forgotten about was the bike rack on my towbar stuck out just enough to still be in the box. The had a camera looking at my rear for the number plate and one looking down showing the rack still in the box.

By 2 inches. I know this as it was the width of the light unit. £35 fine for that.

You should have challenged that on the basis of de minimis.

[E-bmw]

Mandat said:

aterribleusername said:

Could be worse. I got done in one in Cardiff after I did everything right, waited for my exit to be clear and moved across the box cleanly and joined the queue the other side with the rear of my car clear of the box. What if forgotten about was the bike rack on my towbar stuck out just enough to still be in the box. The had a camera looking at my rear for the number plate and one looking down showing the rack still in the box.

By 2 inches. I know this as it was the width of the light unit. £35 fine for that.

You should have challenged that on the basis of de minimis.

But he wasn't in a mini.......

[vikingaero]

There's a guy on Facebook that has a channel helping people get out of box junction tickets. He does it for free and is like a reverse Cycling Mikey.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Mandat said:

You should have challenged that on the basis of de minimis.

There was a law student called Rex
Who had very small organs of sex
When charged with exposure
He replied with composure
De minimus non curat lex.

[aterribleusername]

Mandat said:

You should have challenged that on the basis of de minimis.

Not worth the hassle, just paid up and moved on. Technically I was still in the box so a fair cop. First and so far only fine I've had in 28 years of driving.

[cirian75]

I'm wating for mine from last week.

Two lanes across a box where the trams exit from underneath Piccadilly station.

I was in the left lane, exit clear, right lane is nose to tail in the box.

And as I get to end of the box, a taxi pull from those in the right and blocks my exit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4776819,-2.2320455...

[vikingaero]

cirian75 said:

I'm wating for mine from last week.

Two lanes across a box where the trams exit from underneath Piccadilly station.

I was in the left lane, exit clear, right lane is nose to tail in the box.

And as I get to end of the box, a taxi pull from those in the right and blocks my exit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4776819,-2.2320455...

If someone gets cut off by another vehicle then it's normally a clear cancellation - but saying that some appeals clerks are getting it wrong and you might have to take it to the adjudicator.

The Facebook guy I was thinking of is Yellow Box Guru.

[Mandat]

cirian75 said:

I'm wating for mine from last week.

Two lanes across a box where the trams exit from underneath Piccadilly station.

I was in the left lane, exit clear, right lane is nose to tail in the box.

And as I get to end of the box, a taxi pull from those in the right and blocks my exit.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4776819,-2.2320455...

That does not constitute an offence and the council should not issue a PCN in such a situation.

However, some councils are lazy or ignorant of the law and will issue a PCN anyway but your situation would be an easy defence.