Confusingly Signposted Reduced Speed Limits.
Discussion
A road near me was reduced from an NSL to a 50mph limit a couple of years ago except for a small section between the Blackburn With Darwen boundary where the road goes into Bolton and a 30mph limit.
Drive out of the 30mph in Bolton towards Blackburn and you pass NSL signs and then 50mph signs at the Blackburn boundary. Presumably the local authority in Bolton didn't see the need for the speed limit reduction. Drive the other way into Bolton and as you pass the boundary there is no NSL sign indicating the end of the 50mph limit and the start of the short 60mph limit before the 30mph limit.
If you have the patience to scan along the road on Google Streetview and look back here's the link to see what I'm describing.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
Effectively the road is a 60mph limit in one direction and a 50mph limit in the other. At the opposite end of the road there are no large 50mph limit signs at the beginning of the road as you come off the roundabout at the motorway junction. Only a small reminder type sign a good way up the road. You can go onto the road from a motorway, an NSL single carriageway road or another couple or roads that have been reduced from NSL to 50mph more recently than this one. Depending on which road you've joined this one from you'll have different ideas about what the speed limit is. There are signs along the road saying mobile speed cameras may be in operation. Can a 50mph limit be enforced if the signs are so confusing and the job of putting signs up to indicate the new speed limit seemingly hasn't been finished off properly? I'm not condoning exceeding the 50mph limit but half the people on the road are going to think it's an NSL.
Drive out of the 30mph in Bolton towards Blackburn and you pass NSL signs and then 50mph signs at the Blackburn boundary. Presumably the local authority in Bolton didn't see the need for the speed limit reduction. Drive the other way into Bolton and as you pass the boundary there is no NSL sign indicating the end of the 50mph limit and the start of the short 60mph limit before the 30mph limit.
If you have the patience to scan along the road on Google Streetview and look back here's the link to see what I'm describing.
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
Effectively the road is a 60mph limit in one direction and a 50mph limit in the other. At the opposite end of the road there are no large 50mph limit signs at the beginning of the road as you come off the roundabout at the motorway junction. Only a small reminder type sign a good way up the road. You can go onto the road from a motorway, an NSL single carriageway road or another couple or roads that have been reduced from NSL to 50mph more recently than this one. Depending on which road you've joined this one from you'll have different ideas about what the speed limit is. There are signs along the road saying mobile speed cameras may be in operation. Can a 50mph limit be enforced if the signs are so confusing and the job of putting signs up to indicate the new speed limit seemingly hasn't been finished off properly? I'm not condoning exceeding the 50mph limit but half the people on the road are going to think it's an NSL.
The Court would have to decide, but in general, I would suggest that:
1) Incorrect signing might invalidate a posted limit (or limits), should negate enforcement, and can result in a 'Not Guilty' verdict.
2) "Confusing" signage might not be seen as such by the Court.
3) When leaving one speed limit for another, the new limit applies only when the first sign is passed (which might be a repeater sign). Enforcement should fail in the face of a defence of "no sign" if booked in the area between entering the new limit and the first visible sign. This has been discussed on here several times in the past year or so. A search on "speed limit" and "sign" posted by "tvrgit" and "dvd" [apologies to others]might be rewarding.
It is not impossible for two different speed limits to exist (or be signed) on opposing lanes ... albeit, it would (should) be exceptionally rare on single carriageways - as it is doubtful that the justification for a lower limit could reasonably apply in one direction only. Differential speed limits on dual carriageways do exist in the UK.
Streaky
1) Incorrect signing might invalidate a posted limit (or limits), should negate enforcement, and can result in a 'Not Guilty' verdict.
2) "Confusing" signage might not be seen as such by the Court.
3) When leaving one speed limit for another, the new limit applies only when the first sign is passed (which might be a repeater sign). Enforcement should fail in the face of a defence of "no sign" if booked in the area between entering the new limit and the first visible sign. This has been discussed on here several times in the past year or so. A search on "speed limit" and "sign" posted by "tvrgit" and "dvd" [apologies to others]might be rewarding.
It is not impossible for two different speed limits to exist (or be signed) on opposing lanes ... albeit, it would (should) be exceptionally rare on single carriageways - as it is doubtful that the justification for a lower limit could reasonably apply in one direction only. Differential speed limits on dual carriageways do exist in the UK.
Streaky
While youre finding out orders you could look up reasons for the 30
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
What percentage of drivers do you think are travelling less than 30 as they cross the imaginary line between the posts?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
What percentage of drivers do you think are travelling less than 30 as they cross the imaginary line between the posts?
I can't find anything on the Internet now. The changes were made quite a while ago. I can find a document relating to a review of speed limit changes on the Riley Green Switch Road and other roads around it which connect to the A675. They've either been taken off the Internet or the correct procedures were never followed in the first place and the Speed Restriction Orders were never posted. I've never seen any for Blackburn With Darwen Council or Lancashire County Council even though they're reducing a lot of speed limits at the moment. I've heard or people getting out of speeding fines because procedures relating to Speed Restriction Orders were never followed.
By the way, I haven't been booked for speeding on this road in case that's what some people are thinking, I'm just curious about the signs.
By the way, I haven't been booked for speeding on this road in case that's what some people are thinking, I'm just curious about the signs.
This here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
shows the road is 50mph, but as you say there are no terminal 50mph signs at the roundabout.
I see also that there are speed camera signs along the road. I wonder what speed they think it is?
shows the road is 50mph, but as you say there are no terminal 50mph signs at the roundabout.
I see also that there are speed camera signs along the road. I wonder what speed they think it is?
rodney59 said:
This here http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&a...
shows the road is 50mph, but as you say there are no terminal 50mph signs at the roundabout.
I see also that there are speed camera signs along the road. I wonder what speed they think it is?
I don't think the signs care.shows the road is 50mph, but as you say there are no terminal 50mph signs at the roundabout.
I see also that there are speed camera signs along the road. I wonder what speed they think it is?
Streaky
This?
Traffic Signs Manual 241 1 said:
Signs that do not strictly follow the Regulations and the Directions (see para 1.4 in respect of Northern Ireland), or have not been specially authorised are not lawfully placed and the speed limit might be unenforceable. To avoid the risk of failed prosecutions, it is of the greatest importance that speed limits be signed lawfully. It is equally important that speed limits be signed clearly and in accordance with this guidance, so that at no time will drivers be in any doubt about the prevailing limit.
Streakystreaky said:
This?
It's only of greatest importance Traffic Signs Manual 241 1 said:
Signs that do not strictly follow the Regulations and the Directions (see para 1.4 in respect of Northern Ireland), or have not been specially authorised are not lawfully placed and the speed limit might be unenforceable. To avoid the risk of failed prosecutions, it is of the greatest importance that speed limits be signed lawfully. It is equally important that speed limits be signed clearly and in accordance with this guidance, so that at no time will drivers be in any doubt about the prevailing limit.
Streaky
streaky said:
This?
Yeah... that is it!Traffic Signs Manual 241 1 said:
Signs that do not strictly follow the Regulations and the Directions (see para 1.4 in respect of Northern Ireland), or have not been specially authorised are not lawfully placed and the speed limit might be unenforceable. To avoid the risk of failed prosecutions, it is of the greatest importance that speed limits be signed lawfully. It is equally important that speed limits be signed clearly and in accordance with this guidance, so that at no time will drivers be in any doubt about the prevailing limit.
StreakyI was hoping that by NOT quoting it, more people would go and read the very worthy document themselves!
It should be appended to the Highway Code IMHO!
saaby93 said:
streaky said:
This?
It's only of greatest importance Traffic Signs Manual 241 1 said:
Signs that do not strictly follow the Regulations and the Directions (see para 1.4 in respect of Northern Ireland), or have not been specially authorised are not lawfully placed and the speed limit might be unenforceable. To avoid the risk of failed prosecutions, it is of the greatest importance that speed limits be signed lawfully. It is equally important that speed limits be signed clearly and in accordance with this guidance, so that at no time will drivers be in any doubt about the prevailing limit.
StreakyLove and Marriage by Frank Sinatra comes to mind. I seem to be 'in' to lyrics today.
Streaky
Ahahaha, I came here to ask an identical question in identical circumstances. Of course, one sign has been rotated, thing is, the road is exactly the same in both directions, so the 100% difference in limit between one way and the other is impossible to fathom. Which sign has been turned? Not a clue.
Simon.
Simon.
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