How should I play this (garage issues)?
Discussion
- 4yo thread so scroll down to the post marked *********** for a synopsis and plot twist!
Bit of a long one but bear with it as I'm sure everyone will have an opinion!
About a year ago I took my car ('09 Mondeo TDCI) for a remap and DPF removal, primarily because it was doing excessive regens.
After a week or so it became apparent it was still doing DPF regens so I phone the garage & they send a guy out to look at it (they're about 70 miles away from me). He spends an hour on it & says he's fixed it.
Another couple of weeks go by and again it becomes apparent that he hasn't. This time I leave it for a couple of months as I can't be arsed with the hassle. Eventually I phone them again and this time I have to travel to them (fair enough, they came out to me last time). I get up there, they spend 30 mins on it and again say that should have sorted it. So a couple of weeks go by and again, it's still doing regens, except this time, on a couple of days, no exaggeration, almost every 5 minutes.
If you're still reading here's where it gets marginally more interesting!
I phone them up again just before christmas & as soon as I identify myself I'm met with a loud sigh & definate change in tone of voice.
I tell them the situation, this time I also mention that on the last oil change (around 5000 miles previous) my mechanic drained an extra 2.5 litres out of the sump. Now at the time we weren't sure why this was as I hadn't topped it up since the last change. After doing a bit of research apparently excessive DPF regens will force diesel into the oil system! So aside from the smoke, smell & excessive fuel consumption I now know that I have diesel watering down the oil! This guy then tells me that as it's christmas they're really busy and doesn't know when they're going to be able to fit me in (look in the diary I'm sure you use to book work in normally perhaps?!) and that he'll have to call me in the new year. I realise this isn't going anywhere so say ok.
As my car is now almost undriveable, I get a local garage to take a look asap. Luckily the original garage hadn't encrypted their remap so this local guy can see everything. He tells me the original garage used some software that he personally won't use on cars younger than about 5/6 years as it can cause problems. He then does the DPF delete that should have been done originally and 2 months later it's been absolutely fine so I have 100% faith in what he's told me.
So am I justified in asking the original garage to reimburse my costs of £200 for remedial work carried out by this local garage? Bearing in mind I gave them 3 chances to rectify their work, only 2 of which they took, the third they quite obviously weren't interested in.
TL;DR: should I ask a garage to pay the bill I incurred sorting out their poor workmanship after they had 2 attempts at rectifying it?
Edited by Centurion07 on Tuesday 14th February 09:28
Centurion07 said:
Bit of a long one but bear with it as I'm sure everyone will have an opinion!
About a year ago I took my car ('09 Mondeo TDCI) for a remap and DPF removal, primarily because it was doing excessive regens.
After a week or so it became apparent it was still doing DPF regens so I phone the garage & they send a guy out to look at it (they're about 70 miles away from me). He spends an hour on it & says he's fixed it.
Another couple of weeks go by and again it becomes apparent that he hasn't. This time I leave it for a couple of months as I can't be arsed with the hassle. Eventually I phone them again and this time I have to travel to them (fair enough, they came out to me last time). I get up there, they spend 30 mins on it and again say that should have sorted it. So a couple of weeks go by and again, it's still doing regens, except this time, on a couple of days, no exaggeration, almost every 5 minutes.
If you're still reading here's where it gets marginally more interesting!
I phone them up again just before christmas & as soon as I identify myself I'm met with a loud sigh & definate change in tone of voice.
I tell them the situation, this time I also mention that on the last oil change (around 5000 miles previous) my mechanic drained an extra 2.5 litres out of the sump. Now at the time we weren't sure why this was as I hadn't topped it up since the last change. After doing a bit of research apparently excessive DPF regens will force diesel into the oil system! So aside from the smoke, smell & excessive fuel consumption I now know that I have diesel watering down the oil! This guy then tells me that as it's christmas they're really busy and doesn't know when they're going to be able to fit me in (look in the diary I'm sure you use to book work in normally perhaps?!) and that he'll have to call me in the new year. I realise this isn't going anywhere so say ok.
As my car is now almost undriveable, I get a local garage to take a look asap. Luckily the original garage hadn't encrypted their remap so this local guy can see everything. He tells me the original garage used some software that he personally won't use on cars younger than about 5/6 years as it can cause problems. He then does the DPF delete that should have been done originally and 2 months later it's been absolutely fine so I have 100% faith in what he's told me.
So am I justified in asking the original garage to reimburse my costs of £200 for remedial work carried out by this local garage? Bearing in mind I gave them 3 chances to rectify their work, only 2 of which they took, the third they quite obviously weren't interested in.
TL;DR: should I ask a garage to pay the bill I incurred sorting out their poor workmanship after they had 2 attempts at rectifying it?
I think the main problem is the elapsed time.About a year ago I took my car ('09 Mondeo TDCI) for a remap and DPF removal, primarily because it was doing excessive regens.
After a week or so it became apparent it was still doing DPF regens so I phone the garage & they send a guy out to look at it (they're about 70 miles away from me). He spends an hour on it & says he's fixed it.
Another couple of weeks go by and again it becomes apparent that he hasn't. This time I leave it for a couple of months as I can't be arsed with the hassle. Eventually I phone them again and this time I have to travel to them (fair enough, they came out to me last time). I get up there, they spend 30 mins on it and again say that should have sorted it. So a couple of weeks go by and again, it's still doing regens, except this time, on a couple of days, no exaggeration, almost every 5 minutes.
If you're still reading here's where it gets marginally more interesting!
I phone them up again just before christmas & as soon as I identify myself I'm met with a loud sigh & definate change in tone of voice.
I tell them the situation, this time I also mention that on the last oil change (around 5000 miles previous) my mechanic drained an extra 2.5 litres out of the sump. Now at the time we weren't sure why this was as I hadn't topped it up since the last change. After doing a bit of research apparently excessive DPF regens will force diesel into the oil system! So aside from the smoke, smell & excessive fuel consumption I now know that I have diesel watering down the oil! This guy then tells me that as it's christmas they're really busy and doesn't know when they're going to be able to fit me in (look in the diary I'm sure you use to book work in normally perhaps?!) and that he'll have to call me in the new year. I realise this isn't going anywhere so say ok.
As my car is now almost undriveable, I get a local garage to take a look asap. Luckily the original garage hadn't encrypted their remap so this local guy can see everything. He tells me the original garage used some software that he personally won't use on cars younger than about 5/6 years as it can cause problems. He then does the DPF delete that should have been done originally and 2 months later it's been absolutely fine so I have 100% faith in what he's told me.
So am I justified in asking the original garage to reimburse my costs of £200 for remedial work carried out by this local garage? Bearing in mind I gave them 3 chances to rectify their work, only 2 of which they took, the third they quite obviously weren't interested in.
TL;DR: should I ask a garage to pay the bill I incurred sorting out their poor workmanship after they had 2 attempts at rectifying it?
It's a year down the road - I think you move on. If we were two weeks after the initial fix, and they've been out to you and you've been to them and then your local mechanic sorts it, I think going back and saying 'Oi, money back!' is justified. But a year later?
RtdRacer said:
I think the main problem is the elapsed time.
It's a year down the road - I think you move on. If we were two weeks after the initial fix, and they've been out to you and you've been to them and then your local mechanic sorts it, I think going back and saying 'Oi, money back!' is justified. But a year later?
Would you not liken it to being charged for replacing all four dampers on your car and then discovering that in fact they only changed 2? At least, that's how I see it which is why I'm asking for other opinions.It's a year down the road - I think you move on. If we were two weeks after the initial fix, and they've been out to you and you've been to them and then your local mechanic sorts it, I think going back and saying 'Oi, money back!' is justified. But a year later?
Also, it's not ALL the money back. The original bill was £650 for the remap inlcuding DPF delete and the physical removal of the DPF. I'm just asking for the £200 charged by the local garage which was purely for deleting the DPF function from the ECU, something which was included, but obviously not successfully done, as part of the original work/bill. Never mind how much the life of any internal engine components has been shortened due to diesel getting into the oil.
I happen to know of other people that have had the exact same problem with this company too if that changes anyone's view?
I would (going to take time) explain situation to trading standards also ask citizens advice bureau, If they both have the same conclusion (you're right the garage have not done their job properly) chose which organisation to ask for help to try to pursue the matter ie. refund of cost. If garage refuse, chose if you want to take them to the small claims court, this is generally the cheapest way to 'go to court' for compensation. Web searches or phone can give you details of costs of each stage if you chose that route. If you find this too time consuming / difficult, accepting the loss is the only thing left to do.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation I suspect you'll be lucky to get your money back, although there's no harm in trying.
What kind of records do you have relating to the visits back & forth and what work was meant to be undertaken?
Having had similar situations I'd be included to take it on the chin on the basis that life's too short.
What kind of records do you have relating to the visits back & forth and what work was meant to be undertaken?
Having had similar situations I'd be included to take it on the chin on the basis that life's too short.
RtdRacer said:
I think the main problem is the elapsed time.
It's a year down the road - I think you move on. If we were two weeks after the initial fix, and they've been out to you and you've been to them and then your local mechanic sorts it, I think going back and saying 'Oi, money back!' is justified. But a year later?
Agree, and the fact that you left it so long in between taking the car back each time too. A few weeks is bad enough, but you said you left it a few months the second time so that definitely won't help your case. It's a year down the road - I think you move on. If we were two weeks after the initial fix, and they've been out to you and you've been to them and then your local mechanic sorts it, I think going back and saying 'Oi, money back!' is justified. But a year later?
Yep it sucks that there are garages like that and they do appear to having messed up and charged you for stuff they haven't done but think you've left it too long in this case to do anything about.
On the plus side, it sounds like you've found a decent garage that you can trust so be happy about that and take the £200 loss on the chin!
final_edition said:
What's DPF regens?
Something that owners of more modern diesels should really think about.The DPF (diesel particulate filter) as you would expect, filters out particulates (ie, small particles of diesel s
t that is left after the combustion process). This DPF filter (like an oil filter) will gradually become clogged with particulate. Unlike an oil filter, you cannot simply (or inexpensively) just 'change' the DPF. The car's ECU (or appropriate computer 'box') knows when the DPF is becoming clogged. So it sets into motion a 'regen' (regeneration). This can only happen when the car is used on a reasonable journey (half an hour, or more in some cases) when the regen process introduces more fuel to bring combustion temperatures up and thus exhaust gas temperatures up. And I mean UP.
The temperature inside the DPF gets raised enough to burn off the particulates, literally incinerates them. Of course, in itself, this burning process produces ash, and this fall to the bottom of the DPF. Over time, the DPF get clogged with more particulates, another regen is performed, more ash is produced. After (let's say) 120,000 miles, the DPF is chock-full of ash. Then the DPF needs to be replaced. £1000-£1250 anyone? Be wary of buying a diesel car with over 100K and the original DPF still fitted!
The whole process is a workaround to get diesel cars to give low emmission figures. This (very expensive and a bit silly) workaround will mean eventually that the new super-efficient petrol engines will take over from diesel in the next few years.
So diesel owners, please think about:
If you only use your car for short journeys, get a petrol-engined car. A modern diesel has to get up to temperature regularly to stay clean and efficient. Short journeys mean that the DPF filter replacement will be much sooner. You don't want to have to pay for this, It's not economical! You need to be driving for 20-30 minutes at both ends of the commute to make the figures work, the car won't 'regen' until it reaches temperature. If it starts a regen and the journey stops before the regen is finished, then you have achieved nothing and the DPF is still clogged. (Gas temperature at the inlet, and then the outlet of the DPF is measured and thus tells the ECU when the DPF is getting clogged).
A series of aborted regens will fill up the DPF and it will need replaced much earlier than normal. Big bucks!
The regen process, by its very nature, introduces much more fuel into the engine's combustion process, and an amount of this enters the crankcase and mixes with the engine oil. Think about the condition of the engine oil after a series of aborted regens? Although maybe I should say, it doesn't really want thinking about.
If the normal, automatic regens have not been able to be carried out, a warning symbol will appear on the dash. So go on a good long drive and get the car up to temperature. And get a good regen going.
There are diagnostic machines and instruments that can do 'static' regens (ie, the car doesn't go anywhere, the ECU is instructed to go into 'regen mode' and the ECU will bring the car's revs up to 2500-3000rpm and bring it all up to temperature.) But be aware if your garage does this, not to have anything flammable in the boot or rear floor areas. Everything does get bloody hot, and if the car's not moving, then there's no airflow underneath to keep floor panels reasonable cool.
Cars have literally gone up in smoke during this regeneration process.
Sorry to turn this into an essay, but you did ask.
SV8Predator said:
final_edition said:
What's DPF regens?
Something that owners of more modern diesels should really think about.The DPF (diesel particulate filter) as you would expect, filters out particulates (ie, small particles of diesel s
t that is left after the combustion process). This DPF filter (like an oil filter) will gradually become clogged with particulate. Unlike an oil filter, you cannot simply (or inexpensively) just 'change' the DPF. The car's ECU (or appropriate computer 'box') knows when the DPF is becoming clogged. So it sets into motion a 'regen' (regeneration). This can only happen when the car is used on a reasonable journey (half an hour, or more in some cases) when the regen process introduces more fuel to bring combustion temperatures up and thus exhaust gas temperatures up. And I mean UP.
The temperature inside the DPF gets raised enough to burn off the particulates, literally incinerates them. Of course, in itself, this burning process produces ash, and this fall to the bottom of the DPF. Over time, the DPF get clogged with more particulates, another regen is performed, more ash is produced. After (let's say) 120,000 miles, the DPF is chock-full of ash. Then the DPF needs to be replaced. £1000-£1250 anyone? Be wary of buying a diesel car with over 100K and the original DPF still fitted!
The whole process is a workaround to get diesel cars to give low emmission figures. This (very expensive and a bit silly) workaround will mean eventually that the new super-efficient petrol engines will take over from diesel in the next few years.
So diesel owners, please think about:
If you only use your car for short journeys, get a petrol-engined car. A modern diesel has to get up to temperature regularly to stay clean and efficient. Short journeys mean that the DPF filter replacement will be much sooner. You don't want to have to pay for this, It's not economical! You need to be driving for 20-30 minutes at both ends of the commute to make the figures work, the car won't 'regen' until it reaches temperature. If it starts a regen and the journey stops before the regen is finished, then you have achieved nothing and the DPF is still clogged. (Gas temperature at the inlet, and then the outlet of the DPF is measured and thus tells the ECU when the DPF is getting clogged).
A series of aborted regens will fill up the DPF and it will need replaced much earlier than normal. Big bucks!
The regen process, by its very nature, introduces much more fuel into the engine's combustion process, and an amount of this enters the crankcase and mixes with the engine oil. Think about the condition of the engine oil after a series of aborted regens? Although maybe I should say, it doesn't really want thinking about.
If the normal, automatic regens have not been able to be carried out, a warning symbol will appear on the dash. So go on a good long drive and get the car up to temperature. And get a good regen going.
There are diagnostic machines and instruments that can do 'static' regens (ie, the car doesn't go anywhere, the ECU is instructed to go into 'regen mode' and the ECU will bring the car's revs up to 2500-3000rpm and bring it all up to temperature.) But be aware if your garage does this, not to have anything flammable in the boot or rear floor areas. Everything does get bloody hot, and if the car's not moving, then there's no airflow underneath to keep floor panels reasonable cool.
Cars have literally gone up in smoke during this regeneration process.
Sorry to turn this into an essay, but you did ask.
That's why my next car will likely be a newer petrol turbo, there's just going to be no benefits to owning a diesel with a DPF.
I do remember recently reading of a woman from the Isle of Bute who had no end of trouble with her DPF Ford Kuga, she was trying to claim against garage as they sold her it in the knowledge the car would barely get up to temp, I can't recall if she was successful or not.
SV8Predator said:
final_edition said:
What's DPF regens?
Something that owners of more modern diesels should really think about.The DPF (diesel particulate filter) as you would expect, filters out particulates (ie, small particles of diesel s
t that is left after the combustion process). This DPF filter (like an oil filter) will gradually become clogged with particulate. Unlike an oil filter, you cannot simply (or inexpensively) just 'change' the DPF. The car's ECU (or appropriate computer 'box') knows when the DPF is becoming clogged. So it sets into motion a 'regen' (regeneration). This can only happen when the car is used on a reasonable journey (half an hour, or more in some cases) when the regen process introduces more fuel to bring combustion temperatures up and thus exhaust gas temperatures up. And I mean UP.
The temperature inside the DPF gets raised enough to burn off the particulates, literally incinerates them. Of course, in itself, this burning process produces ash, and this fall to the bottom of the DPF. Over time, the DPF get clogged with more particulates, another regen is performed, more ash is produced. After (let's say) 120,000 miles, the DPF is chock-full of ash. Then the DPF needs to be replaced. £1000-£1250 anyone? Be wary of buying a diesel car with over 100K and the original DPF still fitted!
The whole process is a workaround to get diesel cars to give low emmission figures. This (very expensive and a bit silly) workaround will mean eventually that the new super-efficient petrol engines will take over from diesel in the next few years.
So diesel owners, please think about:
If you only use your car for short journeys, get a petrol-engined car. A modern diesel has to get up to temperature regularly to stay clean and efficient. Short journeys mean that the DPF filter replacement will be much sooner. You don't want to have to pay for this, It's not economical! You need to be driving for 20-30 minutes at both ends of the commute to make the figures work, the car won't 'regen' until it reaches temperature. If it starts a regen and the journey stops before the regen is finished, then you have achieved nothing and the DPF is still clogged. (Gas temperature at the inlet, and then the outlet of the DPF is measured and thus tells the ECU when the DPF is getting clogged).
A series of aborted regens will fill up the DPF and it will need replaced much earlier than normal. Big bucks!
The regen process, by its very nature, introduces much more fuel into the engine's combustion process, and an amount of this enters the crankcase and mixes with the engine oil. Think about the condition of the engine oil after a series of aborted regens? Although maybe I should say, it doesn't really want thinking about.
If the normal, automatic regens have not been able to be carried out, a warning symbol will appear on the dash. So go on a good long drive and get the car up to temperature. And get a good regen going.
There are diagnostic machines and instruments that can do 'static' regens (ie, the car doesn't go anywhere, the ECU is instructed to go into 'regen mode' and the ECU will bring the car's revs up to 2500-3000rpm and bring it all up to temperature.) But be aware if your garage does this, not to have anything flammable in the boot or rear floor areas. Everything does get bloody hot, and if the car's not moving, then there's no airflow underneath to keep floor panels reasonable cool.
Cars have literally gone up in smoke during this regeneration process.
Sorry to turn this into an essay, but you did ask.
If it was me....
I'd call them and speak to the owner/manager - nobody else.
I'd explain the situation, pointing out how pathetic and useless the staff were then ask if they were prepared to refund you.
If he says no, then just say that the management seems to be just as bad, then hang up and move on.
I wouldn't be asking for the £200 that the other garage charged.
Instead I'd say something like 'your guys clearly can't fix it. Just give me back my £200 and I'll go somewhere else.'
(uou're not asking for their money, your asking for your money back)
No point on dwelling on the situation, but if a 5 minute chat with on owner gets you some money back it's worth a shot.
I'd call them and speak to the owner/manager - nobody else.
I'd explain the situation, pointing out how pathetic and useless the staff were then ask if they were prepared to refund you.
If he says no, then just say that the management seems to be just as bad, then hang up and move on.
I wouldn't be asking for the £200 that the other garage charged.
Instead I'd say something like 'your guys clearly can't fix it. Just give me back my £200 and I'll go somewhere else.'
(uou're not asking for their money, your asking for your money back)
No point on dwelling on the situation, but if a 5 minute chat with on owner gets you some money back it's worth a shot.
JQ said:
At what age of car did this become an issue? My wife has a a diesel 1.8 C-Max from 2005 and have never noticed any regens, but it does get a good runout most weeks.
It applies to Euro 5 compliant engines which means from around 2009 for newly type approved cars and a year later for previously type approved cars.Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff