Conservatory not fit for purpose after many 'repairs'
Discussion
Hi all,
From day 1 the conservatory has leaked and been beset by problems with seals etc that have been repaired on several occasions.
The parts replaced have just been replaced by the same like-for-like parts which leak.
Prior to the last time that this 'remedial' work was carried out I asked (in writing) if there has been a re-design of the parts to be replaced, as I could not see the point of once again fitting parts that are known to not work.
Also, I wrote saying that prior to the last repair that this would be the last time we would be having a repair, as we considered the goods not fit for purpose under the terms of the sale of goods act.
We are dealing with a major retailer of double-glazing products, a well-known house-hold name.
I don't consider constant leaks and silicone plastered everywhere as 'goods fit for purpose' and have communicated this in writing previously.
It is my parents property and I have been dealing with it so far since the problems started.
I wrote yesterday to the company concerned saying that we have concluded they are unable to supply a product (and/or service) that is fit for purpose, and have asked for a refund.
The 'product' was circa £15,000.00.
I have asked for a full refund, but think my options are limited to the following;
1-The company refunds the full amount, but leaves the conservatory in-situ..
2-The company makes a refund of a negotiated amount, leaving the conservatory in-situ..
3-The company makes a full refund and takes their product away/down, making good any areas affected...
To be fair, the company, once I spoke to someone 'high-up' has took things seriously, but I feel we have exhausted what the can do.
Time for a refund.
What is my position, as people here see it?
Many thanks.
From day 1 the conservatory has leaked and been beset by problems with seals etc that have been repaired on several occasions.
The parts replaced have just been replaced by the same like-for-like parts which leak.
Prior to the last time that this 'remedial' work was carried out I asked (in writing) if there has been a re-design of the parts to be replaced, as I could not see the point of once again fitting parts that are known to not work.
Also, I wrote saying that prior to the last repair that this would be the last time we would be having a repair, as we considered the goods not fit for purpose under the terms of the sale of goods act.
We are dealing with a major retailer of double-glazing products, a well-known house-hold name.
I don't consider constant leaks and silicone plastered everywhere as 'goods fit for purpose' and have communicated this in writing previously.
It is my parents property and I have been dealing with it so far since the problems started.
I wrote yesterday to the company concerned saying that we have concluded they are unable to supply a product (and/or service) that is fit for purpose, and have asked for a refund.
The 'product' was circa £15,000.00.
I have asked for a full refund, but think my options are limited to the following;
1-The company refunds the full amount, but leaves the conservatory in-situ..
2-The company makes a refund of a negotiated amount, leaving the conservatory in-situ..
3-The company makes a full refund and takes their product away/down, making good any areas affected...
To be fair, the company, once I spoke to someone 'high-up' has took things seriously, but I feel we have exhausted what the can do.
Time for a refund.
What is my position, as people here see it?
Many thanks.
if you can get a couple of independant reports from local conservatory installers to either repair or replace and keep them quiet as a back up just in case.
Push on with the refund, but i would possibly allow them to completely replace the entire conservatory as a last chance option using a ttally different installation team. I doubt its the porducts at fault,more likely the installation team using the product incorrectly or badly.
Push on with the refund, but i would possibly allow them to completely replace the entire conservatory as a last chance option using a ttally different installation team. I doubt its the porducts at fault,more likely the installation team using the product incorrectly or badly.
hedgefinder said:
if you can get a couple of independant reports from local conservatory installers to either repair or replace and keep them quiet as a back up just in case.
Push on with the refund, but i would possibly allow them to completely replace the entire conservatory as a last chance option using a ttally different installation team. I doubt its the porducts at fault,more likely the installation team using the product incorrectly or badly.
Thanks for that.Push on with the refund, but i would possibly allow them to completely replace the entire conservatory as a last chance option using a ttally different installation team. I doubt its the porducts at fault,more likely the installation team using the product incorrectly or badly.
Just had an email back saying they are unable to provide a refund because there is a warranty...
And can they come again and silicone the failed silicone again? For the 6th time this will be.
I've replied and said a warranty has failed to repair their defective product, and the last (and final repair) was carried out by a senior team, whatever senior means.
So the ball is back in their court.
Having given them a last chance warning in writing, then I would halt any of their further attempts to fix it and hold the line that it is time for them to give you your money back.
I'd start with stating formally what you require. Full money back, removal of offending conservatory and making good. Hold that line and perhaps be prepared to compromise at some point.
Set out a timetable for them to respond and agree otherwise you will take legal action.
Bert
I'd start with stating formally what you require. Full money back, removal of offending conservatory and making good. Hold that line and perhaps be prepared to compromise at some point.
Set out a timetable for them to respond and agree otherwise you will take legal action.
Bert
BertBert said:
Having given them a last chance warning in writing, then I would halt any of their further attempts to fix it and hold the line that it is time for them to give you your money back.
I'd start with stating formally what you require. Full money back, removal of offending conservatory and making good. Hold that line and perhaps be prepared to compromise at some point.
Set out a timetable for them to respond and agree otherwise you will take legal action.
Bert
Good advice. You need to timetable the events to date and your requirements for final repair and that fails to timetable your requirements for a refund. If the firm is a member of the glaziers federation or Fensa (which it should be) there are conciliation services available. I'd start with stating formally what you require. Full money back, removal of offending conservatory and making good. Hold that line and perhaps be prepared to compromise at some point.
Set out a timetable for them to respond and agree otherwise you will take legal action.
Bert
Good luck, we got 75% refunded from a failed conservatory which was the third that firm fitted for us. It was also the last. Timetabling the requirements for correction does assist.
Thanks for all replies. Some good advice there.
They are now saying that they can send their 'Top Gun' guy to investigate properly where it is coming from.
It has moved on from a silicone job now, and I feel if I get it inspected by their 'expert' then it strengthens our case further down the line should there be any further leaks-i.e we have exhausted their own 'system' for dealing with a problem-over 8 leaks now.
At the end of the day, they won't cough up until we go to court as it stands, and this way I can demonstrate to the court that we have done and exhausted everything.
The main thing is not getting a wall of silence, which is not the case, so that helps. However, I've recently had my fill of bullish*tters who promise the earth but are unable to deliver, so we'll see.
And I couldn't possibly say which firm.
Keep any advice coming. Thanks.
They are now saying that they can send their 'Top Gun' guy to investigate properly where it is coming from.
It has moved on from a silicone job now, and I feel if I get it inspected by their 'expert' then it strengthens our case further down the line should there be any further leaks-i.e we have exhausted their own 'system' for dealing with a problem-over 8 leaks now.
At the end of the day, they won't cough up until we go to court as it stands, and this way I can demonstrate to the court that we have done and exhausted everything.
The main thing is not getting a wall of silence, which is not the case, so that helps. However, I've recently had my fill of bullish*tters who promise the earth but are unable to deliver, so we'll see.
And I couldn't possibly say which firm.
Keep any advice coming. Thanks.
So, you have a great position. You can say that despite formally giving them a last chance to fix, you are willing to go one step further in the interest of a satisfactory outcome, ...letting their best man in. However, your condition for this is their prior agreement that shoudl it prove fruitless, they agreed to your termination conditions including an agreement not to sue for costs of finding a new supplier (as well as the refund, make good etc).
Bert
Bert
BertBert said:
So, you have a great position. You can say that despite formally giving them a last chance to fix, you are willing to go one step further in the interest of a satisfactory outcome, ...letting their best man in. However, your condition for this is their prior agreement that shoudl it prove fruitless, they agreed to your termination conditions including an agreement not to sue for costs of finding a new supplier (as well as the refund, make good etc).
Bert
Was not that his last position? I'd not be backing down to be honest as top gun should have been sent last time, assuming that he exists and is not just another fitter....Bert
Time for a letter before action from a lawyer I think personally.
Steffan said:
Good advice. You need to timetable the events to date and your requirements for final repair and that fails to timetable your requirements for a refund. If the firm is a member of the glaziers federation or Fensa (which it should be) there are conciliation services available.
Good luck, we got 75% refunded from a failed conservatory which was the third that firm fitted for us. It was also the last. Timetabling the requirements for correction does assist.
Thanks for your post.Good luck, we got 75% refunded from a failed conservatory which was the third that firm fitted for us. It was also the last. Timetabling the requirements for correction does assist.
Do you mind me asking did you get your refund through the firm themselves as in they agreed, or were they 'made' through a court/legal proceedings/trade body etc?
Thank you.
surveyor said:
Was not that his last position? I'd not be backing down to be honest as top gun should have been sent last time, assuming that he exists and is not just another fitter....
Time for a letter before action from a lawyer I think personally.
Great advice both of you. Thank you.Time for a letter before action from a lawyer I think personally.
I am inclined to agree with you both, but my parents are not in the best of health and I don't want to go down a 'legal' road without making sure I have properly exhausted everything.
Yes, they should have sent in their boffin earlier I 100% agree, but I don't want 'them' arguing further down the line that we would not allow them to send in their 'self appointed expert'.
What I want to do is if/when we go down the 'formal' route then it will be a case of '"After 9 visits, the last one being their resident expert, they still cannot supply goods fit for purpose, and we are seeking a full refund etc etc"
One thing I am conscious about is if these clowns (oops) have to remove their conservatory, I don't want a mess left or things getting broken/damaged of the existing structure, which of course is another legal hell-hole (again).
Hope that makes sense?
I've been firm with them but would rather be seen to 'back down' and take the moral higher ground at this stage.
Any thoughts please share.
Thanks.
BlimeyCharlie said:
Steffan said:
Good advice. You need to timetable the events to date and your requirements for final repair and that fails to timetable your requirements for a refund. If the firm is a member of the glaziers federation or Fensa (which it should be) there are conciliation services available.
Good luck, we got 75% refunded from a failed conservatory which was the third that firm fitted for us. It was also the last. Timetabling the requirements for correction does assist.
Thanks for your post.Good luck, we got 75% refunded from a failed conservatory which was the third that firm fitted for us. It was also the last. Timetabling the requirements for correction does assist.
Do you mind me asking did you get your refund through the firm themselves as in they agreed, or were they 'made' through a court/legal proceedings/trade body etc?
Thank you.
We used the timetable/recorded letters approach and always wrote in detail confirming the extent of the defects, the extent of the work needed and the detailed remedy as prescribed by them. When this failed we wrote again by the recorded delivery method confirming the extent of the failure and then repeated the whole process as each repair failed.
The fundamental difficulty was an incorrect design of roof/failure to achieve weatherproofing even to light rain. The roof was a sieve in fact. After five full scale attempts to repair all totally failing and detailed in the process above I called for a meeting with the two Directors of the company on site and presented them with a 50 page file detailing the original design faults and their complete failure to waterproof the conservatory or even achieve light rain proofing. I pointed out that the product was totally unfit for purpose and could not be used and asked for a full refund. We had bought three conservatories from this firm and that only this one was totally defective.
After some discussion faced with the file detailing all the previous occasion of incorrect solutions applied which immediately failed and our previous payment in full without difficulty on two occasions I suggested that settlement and withdrawl was the only reasonable business solution and after a brief discussion the firm agreed.
We accepted a 75% settlement to avoid litigation. We then found a specialist conservatory repair company who designed and fitted a complete new roof which in the three years we were in the house never leaked. Although this cast us several thousand pounds it gave us what we wanted. Despite the eventual saving I would never wish to repeat the performance. Good luck with your repair and resolution.
Steffan said:
We got it by negotiation following repeated failed attempts to rectify.
We used the timetable/recorded letters approach and always wrote in detail confirming the extent of the defects, the extent of the work needed and the detailed remedy as prescribed by them. When this failed we wrote again by the recorded delivery method confirming the extent of the failure and then repeated the whole process as each repair failed.
The fundamental difficulty was an incorrect design of roof/failure to achieve weatherproofing even to light rain. The roof was a sieve in fact. After five full scale attempts to repair all totally failing and detailed in the process above I called for a meeting with the two Directors of the company on site and presented them with a 50 page file detailing the original design faults and their complete failure to waterproof the conservatory or even achieve light rain proofing. I pointed out that the product was totally unfit for purpose and could not be used and asked for a full refund. We had bought three conservatories from this firm and that only this one was totally defective.
After some discussion faced with the file detailing all the previous occasion of incorrect solutions applied which immediately failed and our previous payment in full without difficulty on two occasions I suggested that settlement and withdrawl was the only reasonable business solution and after a brief discussion the firm agreed.
We accepted a 75% settlement to avoid litigation. We then found a specialist conservatory repair company who designed and fitted a complete new roof which in the three years we were in the house never leaked. Although this cast us several thousand pounds it gave us what we wanted. Despite the eventual saving I would never wish to repeat the performance. Good luck with your repair and resolution.
Thanks for your reply some time ago.We used the timetable/recorded letters approach and always wrote in detail confirming the extent of the defects, the extent of the work needed and the detailed remedy as prescribed by them. When this failed we wrote again by the recorded delivery method confirming the extent of the failure and then repeated the whole process as each repair failed.
The fundamental difficulty was an incorrect design of roof/failure to achieve weatherproofing even to light rain. The roof was a sieve in fact. After five full scale attempts to repair all totally failing and detailed in the process above I called for a meeting with the two Directors of the company on site and presented them with a 50 page file detailing the original design faults and their complete failure to waterproof the conservatory or even achieve light rain proofing. I pointed out that the product was totally unfit for purpose and could not be used and asked for a full refund. We had bought three conservatories from this firm and that only this one was totally defective.
After some discussion faced with the file detailing all the previous occasion of incorrect solutions applied which immediately failed and our previous payment in full without difficulty on two occasions I suggested that settlement and withdrawl was the only reasonable business solution and after a brief discussion the firm agreed.
We accepted a 75% settlement to avoid litigation. We then found a specialist conservatory repair company who designed and fitted a complete new roof which in the three years we were in the house never leaked. Although this cast us several thousand pounds it gave us what we wanted. Despite the eventual saving I would never wish to repeat the performance. Good luck with your repair and resolution.
I thought I'd replied but had not. Apologies.
Basically, we have had their 'top' guy come out, who said verbally it was the worst job he'd seen for 6 years.
He did some tests with a hosepipe, but could not make it leak.
Firm have decided that all roof panels need replacing, along with roof bars (yet again) and other bits.
Today, I have an email from the clown I'm dealing with, who says because it did not leak during the test, then there is nothing wrong with it-the various parts are only being replaced for 'visual' reasons, and is now classed as a 'service' visit!
I'm sick of their attitude. Some of the parts delivered were damaged, and left in the garage, in the way, even after I asked (in writing) to get all parts picked up.
The 'visual service' is due to take place next week, and I've asked (in writing) why parts that are not defective (according to them) have had silicone applied to them?
Also asked how often a 'service' will take place, and will they replace the roof each 'service'?
As they are claiming there is nothing wrong now with their product, other than 'visually', I have suggested we get an independent surveyor in to take a look at it in its current state.
My thoughts are they are claiming it is not 'defective' anymore to avoid a claim of 'breach of warranty', which I've said they are doing, as they have failed to repair it after 8 or more visits.
I have found someone 'higher' in the firm (The CEO) and asked for his intervention. LIke he will care!
Remember Ted Moult anyone? I feel like shooting myself too, but don't want to muck up the glazing in case the seal breaks again.
BlimeyCharlie said:
surveyor said:
Was not that his last position? I'd not be backing down to be honest as top gun should have been sent last time, assuming that he exists and is not just another fitter....
Time for a letter before action from a lawyer I think personally.
Great advice both of you. Thank you.Time for a letter before action from a lawyer I think personally.
I am inclined to agree with you both, but my parents are not in the best of health and I don't want to go down a 'legal' road without making sure I have properly exhausted everything.
Yes, they should have sent in their boffin earlier I 100% agree, but I don't want 'them' arguing further down the line that we would not allow them to send in their 'self appointed expert'.
What I want to do is if/when we go down the 'formal' route then it will be a case of '"After 9 visits, the last one being their resident expert, they still cannot supply goods fit for purpose, and we are seeking a full refund etc etc"
One thing I am conscious about is if these clowns (oops) have to remove their conservatory, I don't want a mess left or things getting broken/damaged of the existing structure, which of course is another legal hell-hole (again).
Hope that makes sense?
I've been firm with them but would rather be seen to 'back down' and take the moral higher ground at this stage.
Any thoughts please share.
Thanks.
As above, if this is a large company their systems are generally fit for purpose and defects are usually due to poor assembly. If this 'top gun' fails, push for a replacement. If that fails push for it to be removed but be clear in what you want. Do you no longer want this conservatory, or do you no longer want any conservatory?
Good luck with this.
Paul
Hi Paul/The Surveyor,
I did put a much more recent post on this than the one you have quoted, so don't know if you have read the one earlier tonight or not?
Feel I'm just being given the runaround, and the firm are happy to just go around in circles.
If you wish to add to my latest update from tonight, then please do so.
Many thanks, and the same goes for anyone else!
Cheers.
I did put a much more recent post on this than the one you have quoted, so don't know if you have read the one earlier tonight or not?
Feel I'm just being given the runaround, and the firm are happy to just go around in circles.
If you wish to add to my latest update from tonight, then please do so.
Many thanks, and the same goes for anyone else!
Cheers.
Update of situation is we now have a Solicitor representing the company...
After 13 visits to in just over a year, we now have another problem.
This is one problem too many.
We have been offered compensation of £500 for the 'inconvenience' caused during the 13 visits. I am asking for 50% compensation. Total cost is actually circa £19,000.
My parents are retired, with Father disabled.
Have asked Solicitor if the firm is exempt from Sale Of Goods Act 1979 but he has not answered this, or answered my question to clarify the firm's quality control procedures, and several other 'basic' questions posed.
Instead, he (the Solicitor) has suggested we ask an industry ombudsmen to resolve the issue. And might go a 'bit' higher with compensation..
Any advice appreciated.
My initial thoughts are to ask again for him to answer my questions from previous email, and insist on a full refund, as the firm have been unable to supply goods of satisfactory quality.
13 visits to repair a brand spanking new conservatory in just over a year, no records kept apart from my emails, no QC procedure. Not good, is it?
Thanks folks.
After 13 visits to in just over a year, we now have another problem.
This is one problem too many.
We have been offered compensation of £500 for the 'inconvenience' caused during the 13 visits. I am asking for 50% compensation. Total cost is actually circa £19,000.
My parents are retired, with Father disabled.
Have asked Solicitor if the firm is exempt from Sale Of Goods Act 1979 but he has not answered this, or answered my question to clarify the firm's quality control procedures, and several other 'basic' questions posed.
Instead, he (the Solicitor) has suggested we ask an industry ombudsmen to resolve the issue. And might go a 'bit' higher with compensation..
Any advice appreciated.
My initial thoughts are to ask again for him to answer my questions from previous email, and insist on a full refund, as the firm have been unable to supply goods of satisfactory quality.
13 visits to repair a brand spanking new conservatory in just over a year, no records kept apart from my emails, no QC procedure. Not good, is it?
Thanks folks.
Check out the FENSa website and look at their arbitration service, these are often binding on the member but not on the customer and so you still have options. I would also be looking at the option to get an independent survey completed of the current structure to look at the full design as well as the construction / assembly / installation. None of this stops you from asking for the answers to your questions in parallel.
Starfighter said:
Check out the FENSa website and look at their arbitration service, these are often binding on the member but not on the customer and so you still have options. I would also be looking at the option to get an independent survey completed of the current structure to look at the full design as well as the construction / assembly / installation. None of this stops you from asking for the answers to your questions in parallel.
And if those don't resolve, setting up a blog details all of the facts with some decent SEO, plus contacting the press, Watchdog, etc, might give you an alternate resolution and cost you nearly nothing.Also, write to the CEO. You may be able to get his/her email here: www.ceoemail.com
Thank you both for the above suggestions.
I've been copying in the CEO during attempts to get someone to speak to me after this latest problem, though I should check myself that it is the correct person.
I've mentioned using media to report on our experience, and seemed to wake up the Solicitor.
I'll look into your suggestions further and report back, and thanks again for the help.
I've been copying in the CEO during attempts to get someone to speak to me after this latest problem, though I should check myself that it is the correct person.
I've mentioned using media to report on our experience, and seemed to wake up the Solicitor.
I'll look into your suggestions further and report back, and thanks again for the help.
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