HGV's parking under bridges on motorways?
Discussion
Just a quick question about several HGV's and a couple of caravans I saw parked under a few bridges on the M25 today. The vehicles were parked under the bridges between the supports and concrete barriers and the grass verge, all had their curtains closed in the cabs. Can the vehicles do this legally? Thanks
I'm not plod, but 99.9% certain its illegal.
the reason this sometimes happens is the truck drivers, (normally always foreign in these cases) may have been held up in an accident/incident on the motorway for a period of time, thus maybe putting them at, or over their maximum daily legal limit of tacho hours that we have to adhere to.
you have to bear in mind, that any infringement on tacho laws is logged, and stays on the machine for a period of time, (sorry not sure what that period of time is.)
The police in certain European countries are very very keen on tachograph hours/laws, and will gladly hand out a substantial on the spot fine to any driver breaking these rules, hence the scenario we seem to get as you describe. The foreign drivers would rather stay within the realms of the tacho laws, so end up parked as you describe, knowing that the only people that can then move them on is the police, and to be moved, if it were me although happy to move for the police, I'd insist on the police officer signing a printout of my tacho, for future discrepancies.
I guess its all about covering your ass.
half the problem in the UK is a severe lack of regular, decent, overnight stopping places for trucks.
remember alot of the foreign trucks on our roads, will be piloted by drivers that earn alot less than other european drivers, so they don't want to pay out anywhere upto £27 a night to park their truck in the uk, when nearly everywhere else in mainland europe offers decent stopping/parking areas for free.
sorry bit long winded, but hth.
the reason this sometimes happens is the truck drivers, (normally always foreign in these cases) may have been held up in an accident/incident on the motorway for a period of time, thus maybe putting them at, or over their maximum daily legal limit of tacho hours that we have to adhere to.
you have to bear in mind, that any infringement on tacho laws is logged, and stays on the machine for a period of time, (sorry not sure what that period of time is.)
The police in certain European countries are very very keen on tachograph hours/laws, and will gladly hand out a substantial on the spot fine to any driver breaking these rules, hence the scenario we seem to get as you describe. The foreign drivers would rather stay within the realms of the tacho laws, so end up parked as you describe, knowing that the only people that can then move them on is the police, and to be moved, if it were me although happy to move for the police, I'd insist on the police officer signing a printout of my tacho, for future discrepancies.
I guess its all about covering your ass.
half the problem in the UK is a severe lack of regular, decent, overnight stopping places for trucks.
remember alot of the foreign trucks on our roads, will be piloted by drivers that earn alot less than other european drivers, so they don't want to pay out anywhere upto £27 a night to park their truck in the uk, when nearly everywhere else in mainland europe offers decent stopping/parking areas for free.
sorry bit long winded, but hth.
I wouldnt sign a tacho for a driver stopped on the H/S! (Plus most are digitac now which you only could sign a print out as the details are kept on the card!)
The tacho (euro) rules allow for unforeseen circumstances to allow to drive to the next safest legal place to stop! UK trucks rarely do it, but abide by the same rules, whilst I agree that there are not enough dedicated secure places for HGVs to park, round this part of the M25 there are quite a few free places like lay-bys.
The reason they do it though, is the fact it's cheaper getting fined in the UK for being on the hard shoulder, than it is for being fined by the French or German police for Breaking the tacho rules!!
The tacho (euro) rules allow for unforeseen circumstances to allow to drive to the next safest legal place to stop! UK trucks rarely do it, but abide by the same rules, whilst I agree that there are not enough dedicated secure places for HGVs to park, round this part of the M25 there are quite a few free places like lay-bys.
The reason they do it though, is the fact it's cheaper getting fined in the UK for being on the hard shoulder, than it is for being fined by the French or German police for Breaking the tacho rules!!
TPS said:
^^^^still not allowed to stop on the motorway.
Still illegal to stop.
They should note the reason why and come off and park somewhere safe.
not disagreeing with this.Still illegal to stop.
They should note the reason why and come off and park somewhere safe.
worst case scenario. They pass a services with say 45 mins left of their daily allowance and are 30 mins from the next services and decide to carry on. Then big accident, motorway shut for 4 hours. Finally reopens, if they've not already called it a day and parked as described in the original post, they have got to go to the next services, and be some 4 odd hours over their max.
even with a print out, its gonna take some explaining 3 weeks down the line in Germany, Poland, or similar.
not saying its right, just trying to highlight what the reasons might be.
orange n blue said:
Would the 4 hours parked up in traffic count as a break ?
It could do. Lets say I'd done a 10 hour day, and the accident scenario happened. Could sit on break, or maybe p.o.a, (period of availability) for say 4 hours. Motorway clears, I drive the half hour to next available services and book off having done 14 and a half hours of a possible legal maximum 15 hours.
but, as described earlier, if I had already done a 14 hour day, this is where the problem would arise.
Could put it on break, but if after 4 hours the motor8way cleared, and you were moved on, this would interupt your daily rest period, and also put you over your daily maximum shift.
so you go to the services, and imho book off from this point, do a print out and write on printout the reasons you've exceeded your hours.
I guess then, on paper you'd technically be up for 2 infringements, 1 for exceeding your maximum daily shift, and another for insufficient daily rest, due to the movement.
So even though I may have "technically" had 4 hours break, once I'd moved even if just to the services, my minimum 9 hours daily rest would have to start again from ghe time of booking off in the services.
Tacho laws, so simple and uncomplicated
chilistrucker said:
It could do.
Lets say I'd done a 10 hour day, and the accident scenario happened. Could sit on break, or maybe p.o.a, (period of availability) for say 4 hours. Motorway clears, I drive the half hour to next available services and book off having done 14 and a half hours of a possible legal maximum 15 hours.
but, as described earlier, if I had already done a 14 hour day, this is where the problem would arise.
Could put it on break, but if after 4 hours the motor8way cleared, and you were moved on, this would interupt your daily rest period, and also put you over your daily maximum shift.
so you go to the services, and imho book off from this point, do a print out and write on printout the reasons you've exceeded your hours.
I guess then, on paper you'd technically be up for 2 infringements, 1 for exceeding your maximum daily shift, and another for insufficient daily rest, due to the movement.
So even though I may have "technically" had 4 hours break, once I'd moved even if just to the services, my minimum 9 hours daily rest would have to start again from ghe time of booking off in the services.
Tacho laws, so simple and uncomplicated
I've often wondered how you chaps cope with these issues.Lets say I'd done a 10 hour day, and the accident scenario happened. Could sit on break, or maybe p.o.a, (period of availability) for say 4 hours. Motorway clears, I drive the half hour to next available services and book off having done 14 and a half hours of a possible legal maximum 15 hours.
but, as described earlier, if I had already done a 14 hour day, this is where the problem would arise.
Could put it on break, but if after 4 hours the motor8way cleared, and you were moved on, this would interupt your daily rest period, and also put you over your daily maximum shift.
so you go to the services, and imho book off from this point, do a print out and write on printout the reasons you've exceeded your hours.
I guess then, on paper you'd technically be up for 2 infringements, 1 for exceeding your maximum daily shift, and another for insufficient daily rest, due to the movement.
So even though I may have "technically" had 4 hours break, once I'd moved even if just to the services, my minimum 9 hours daily rest would have to start again from ghe time of booking off in the services.
Tacho laws, so simple and uncomplicated
It would be a nightmare for me sometimes, doing the "service engineer" job I do if anyone ever imposed driving hours on me.
Nigel Worc's said:
I've often wondered how you chaps cope with these issues.
It would be a nightmare for me sometimes, doing the "service engineer" job I do if anyone ever imposed driving hours on me.
It can be abit of a nightmare keeping on top of the hours thing. It works on rolling weeks, we are not allowed to exceed 90 hours driving in a fortnight, and a max of 56 hours in 1 week. So say 56 in week 1, leaves you a max of 34 hours driving time in week 2. The daily minimum rest is supposed to be 11 hours, although 3 times a week you can reduce this to 9 hours, provided you make the shortfall up. On top of this, technically speaking you can do 15 hours a day, everyday provided during the daily shift you have an uninterrupted rest of 3 hours, thus at the end of this days shift you can take a 9 hour rest, and this is known as a split daily rest.It would be a nightmare for me sometimes, doing the "service engineer" job I do if anyone ever imposed driving hours on me.
Bonkers I know, and this is just a fraction of it.
there is sooooo much more, but I won't bore you
chilistrucker said:
Nigel Worc's said:
I've often wondered how you chaps cope with these issues.
It would be a nightmare for me sometimes, doing the "service engineer" job I do if anyone ever imposed driving hours on me.
It can be abit of a nightmare keeping on top of the hours thing. It works on rolling weeks, we are not allowed to exceed 90 hours driving in a fortnight, and a max of 56 hours in 1 week. So say 56 in week 1, leaves you a max of 34 hours driving time in week 2. The daily minimum rest is supposed to be 11 hours, although 3 times a week you can reduce this to 9 hours, provided you make the shortfall up. On top of this, technically speaking you can do 15 hours a day, everyday provided during the daily shift you have an uninterrupted rest of 3 hours, thus at the end of this days shift you can take a 9 hour rest, and this is known as a split daily rest.It would be a nightmare for me sometimes, doing the "service engineer" job I do if anyone ever imposed driving hours on me.
Bonkers I know, and this is just a fraction of it.
there is sooooo much more, but I won't bore you
Sort of like a 3 hour drive to site, say a 12 hour site visit, then a 3 hour drive back. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.
Nigel Worc's said:
I realise that driving is your job, so I'd probably be ok, the issue for me is if they counted my job too, if that makes sense.
Sort of like a 3 hour drive to site, say a 12 hour site visit, then a 3 hour drive back. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.
If they did bring hours laws in for you, that would def be a problem.Sort of like a 3 hour drive to site, say a 12 hour site visit, then a 3 hour drive back. It doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.
15 hours is our current maximum working day. Can't exceed 10 hours driving, then add in 2, 45 minute breaks, that leaves us 3 and 1/2 hours to play with for either p.o.a or other work, such as loading/unloading the truck, all of which must be shown via different mode switches on the tacho machine.
I know plenty of drivers that whilst filling up their truck on the diesel pumps, will switch the tacho onto break mode, too maybe get a 15 minute break in, or thats how it would appear on a printout.
its wrong, and illegal and should be shown as other work.
the day you describe, on tacho rules, would be an 18 hour shift
Edited by chilistrucker on Saturday 26th April 23:41
chilistrucker said:
I'm not plod, but 99.9% certain its illegal.
It ischilistrucker said:
half the problem in the UK is a severe lack of regular, decent,free? overnight stopping places for trucks.remember alot of the foreign trucks on our roads, will be piloted by drivers that earn alot less than other european drivers, so they don't want to pay out anywhere upto £27 a night to park their truck in the uk, when nearly everywhere else in mainland europe offers decent stopping/parking areas for free
Whereas the FREE parking areas abroad are paid for within the toll road fee in a system where the service area's are franchised out for a set period of time, a completely different system from the uk where the parking areas are all privately owned (with a few sites leased from the GOVT) and we don't pay road tolls (apart from the Norton Canes site, location of Roadchef's HQ not operated by the road operator M6 toll) chilistrucker said:
I guess its all about covering your ass.
Sums it up nicely TPS said:
^^^^still not allowed to stop on the motorway.
Still illegal to stop.
They should note the reason why and come off and park somewhere safe.
Bang on Check here https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...Still illegal to stop.
They should note the reason why and come off and park somewhere safe.
Specifically page 23
The regs said:
Unforeseen events
Provided that road safety is not jeopardised, and to enable a driver to reach a suitable stopping place,
a departure from the EU rules may be permitted to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of persons,
the vehicle or its load. Drivers must note all the reasons for doing so on the back of their tachograph
record sheets (if using an analogue tachograph) or on a printout or temporary sheet (if using a digital
tachograph) at the latest on reaching the suitable stopping place (see relevant sections covering manual
entries). Repeated and regular occurrences, however, might indicate to enforcement officers that
employers were not in fact scheduling work to enable compliance with the applicable rules.
A judgment by the European Court of Justice dated 9 November 1995 provides a useful guide to
how this provision should be interpreted. It can apply only in cases where it unexpectedly becomes
impossible to comply with the rules on drivers’ hours during the course of a journey. In other words,
planned breaches of the rules are not allowed. This means that when an unforeseen event occurs, it
would be for the driver to decide whether it was necessary to depart from the rules. In doing so, a driver
would have to take into account the need to ensure road safety in the process (e.g. when driving a
vehicle carrying an abnormal load under the Special Types regulations) and any instruction that may be
given by an enforcement officer (e.g. when under police escort).
23
SECTION 1:
EU & AETR rules on drivers’ hoursSome examples of such events are delays caused by severe weather, road traffic accidents, mechanical
breakdowns, interruptions of ferry services and any event that causes or is likely to cause danger to the
life or health of people or animals. Note that this concession only allows for drivers to reach a suitable
stopping place, not necessarily to complete their planned journey. Drivers and operators would be
expected to reschedule any disrupted work to remain in compliance with the EU rules.
Provided that road safety is not jeopardised, and to enable a driver to reach a suitable stopping place,
a departure from the EU rules may be permitted to the extent necessary to ensure the safety of persons,
the vehicle or its load. Drivers must note all the reasons for doing so on the back of their tachograph
record sheets (if using an analogue tachograph) or on a printout or temporary sheet (if using a digital
tachograph) at the latest on reaching the suitable stopping place (see relevant sections covering manual
entries). Repeated and regular occurrences, however, might indicate to enforcement officers that
employers were not in fact scheduling work to enable compliance with the applicable rules.
A judgment by the European Court of Justice dated 9 November 1995 provides a useful guide to
how this provision should be interpreted. It can apply only in cases where it unexpectedly becomes
impossible to comply with the rules on drivers’ hours during the course of a journey. In other words,
planned breaches of the rules are not allowed. This means that when an unforeseen event occurs, it
would be for the driver to decide whether it was necessary to depart from the rules. In doing so, a driver
would have to take into account the need to ensure road safety in the process (e.g. when driving a
vehicle carrying an abnormal load under the Special Types regulations) and any instruction that may be
given by an enforcement officer (e.g. when under police escort).
23
SECTION 1:
EU & AETR rules on drivers’ hoursSome examples of such events are delays caused by severe weather, road traffic accidents, mechanical
breakdowns, interruptions of ferry services and any event that causes or is likely to cause danger to the
life or health of people or animals. Note that this concession only allows for drivers to reach a suitable
stopping place, not necessarily to complete their planned journey. Drivers and operators would be
expected to reschedule any disrupted work to remain in compliance with the EU rules.
Landshark said:
whilst I agree that there are not enough dedicated secure places for HGVs to park, round this part of the M25 there are quite a few free places like lay-bys.
But the laybys don't provide toilets etc and the locals get pe&d off finding bottles of pee and carriers bags of sh!t in the hedges .Which part of the M25 are you on, Cobham took over 10 years to get planning etc.
I have seen an excellent plan/idea from a member of the public who suggests a new service area to cater for the M25 consisting of a gravel car park and some portaloos
Fozziebear said:
Just a quick question about several HGV's and a couple of caravans I saw parked under a few bridges on the M25 today.
It would be very interesting to see the fallout if a couple went BOOOOOOOOOOMknowing there is a risk and beggar all is being done about it ??
like our OIRISH pals
threatened in the 90's and carried out in Manchester 1996. chilistrucker said:
the day you describe, on tacho rules, would be an 18 hour shift
I suspect that if something went wrong on a day like that and the poster was involved in a serious accident on the way home difficult questions would be asked. I would hope that the OPs employer in theory has policies in place to stop it happening.So for example our driving policy means we are obliged to take a rest after 2 hours driving, not saying everyone does but if we had an accident the company would be pointing to their policies and procedures very quickly.
speedyguy said:
Stuff.
Cobham wasn't just the planning issues, the company wanting to build it also had issues!!A3 has plenty of lay-bys, some made by trucks themselves because they don't want to drive further down to an available one!!
As mentioned somebody has to pay for the land/toilets/cleaning and there lies the problem!!
(Cobham has and interesting issue which a lot of us noticed as soon as it opened, some drivers are starting to cotton on as well?!?!?
)Landshark said:
(Cobham has and interesting issue which a lot of us noticed as soon as it opened, some drivers are starting to cotton on as well?!?!? )
Go on, I'll bite, what's the problem with Cobham? I was there yesterday night and other than a lot of people parking inappropriately in the disabled spots I couldn't see a problem. )Fort Jefferson said:
Were they parked near to some road works with contraflow? If so, they are probably the 24h breakdown crew.
Nope. 2 HGV's under a bridge, concrete barriers traffic side, grass verge up to bridge. The area they were parked in was a white lined box, like the yellow box junctions but in solid white lines. It just looked like they had tried to hide under the bridge for a break. Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff