Notice of grounds for possession ground 5

[jbsportstech]

We rent out our house for various reasons and we are looking to rent a house owned by the church.

They have just issued a tenancy for the the house with the above notice included stating they can issue 2 months notice.

Under section 2 of the housing act can this override the assured period in?

I want to ensure I have assured period.

Edited by jbsportstech on Thursday 8th May 09:48

[Eclassy]

Under Section 8, there is no guarantee of an assured period.e.g a tenant signs a 12 month assured tenancy and moves in paying the deposit and one month rent, he then doesnt pay for the next 2 months. I can serve him a section 8 notice on ground 8, 3 months into his assured tenancy.

The church would only have to wait for the assured period to have elapsed if they wanted to gain possession under section 21.

Are you a minister of religion? If you are not, I am not sure the church can use this ground for possession.

[littleguy]

jbsportstech said:

We rent out our house for various reasons and we are looking to rent a house owned by the church.

They have just issued a tenancy for the the house with the above notice included stating they can issue 2 months notice.

Under section 2 of the housing act can this override the assured period in?

I want to ensure I have assured period.

Edited by jbsportstech on Thursday 8th May 09:48

Yes they can apply under Section 8,Ground 5 at any time but I'm pretty sure that this only applies if you're a minister.

[jbsportstech]

Your response relates to a situation were the tenant has not fulfilled their part of the tenancy and therefore in breach.

I read it as they can have the house back at two months notice as it is owned for the purposes of being occupied by a minister of religion in the event of it being required for these purposes.

My question does this mean I dont have an assured period of 6 months?

[jbsportstech]

littleguy said:

Yes they can apply under Section 8,Ground 5 at any time but I'm pretty sure that this only applies if you're a minister.

House is owned buy the church was left to them in a will for use to be rented to families.

I am not a minister of religion I am surveyor.

The previous tenant was a trainee vicar and has moved on.

The current vicar intends to stay 3-4 years and has his own house.

[littleguy]

jbsportstech said:

Your response relates to a situation were the tenant has not fulfilled their part of the tenancy and therefore in breach.

I read it as they can have the house back at two months notice as it is owned for the purposes of being occupied by a minister of religion in the event of it being required for these purposes.

My question does this mean I dont have an assured period of 6 months?

It is an assured tenancy BUT there are certain grounds (listed under section 8) that means that possession can be granted irrespective of whether the tenancy is assured or not.

Basically, there is a chance that they will ask for it back within whatever the fixed period is. Only you can determine the likelihood of that happening and whether it's a risk you're prepared to take.

Section 8 grounds aren't solely for a breach.

[littleguy]

jbsportstech said:

House is owned buy the church was left to them in a will for use to be rented to families.

I am not a minister of religion I am surveyor.

The previous tenant was a trainee vicar and has moved on.

The current vicar intends to stay 3-4 years and has his own house.

Ground 5 Minister of Religion:Mandatory / Periodic + Fixed/ Additional Notice Req
expand

The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a minister of religion, and such a minister requires it.

In addition, the Landlord must have given notice to the Tenant before the grant of tenancy that possession might be recovered on this ground.

Further, the date specified in the s.8 Notice must not be earlier than 2 months from the date of service, and (for a periodic tenancy) no earlier than the tenancy could have been determined at common law.

I read this as saying that they CAN issue proceedings at any point if they are to use it for a minister.

[jbsportstech]

littleguy said:

Ground 5 Minister of Religion:Mandatory / Periodic + Fixed/ Additional Notice Req
expand

The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a minister of religion, and such a minister requires it.

In addition, the Landlord must have given notice to the Tenant before the grant of tenancy that possession might be recovered on this ground.

Further, the date specified in the s.8 Notice must not be earlier than 2 months from the date of service, and (for a periodic tenancy) no earlier than the tenancy could have been determined at common law.

I read this as saying that they CAN issue proceedings at any point if they are to use it for a minister.

either way they have to give two months notice.

Thats how I read it.

Agent believes it doesnt over ride the assured period and have a relative on the inside of the church.

Edited by jbsportstech on Thursday 8th May 12:17

[littleguy]

jbsportstech said:

either way they have to give two months notice.

Thats how I read it.

yes but this can happen at any time.

[jbsportstech]

Agent states the assured period is protected.

I think I will have to ask shelter for advice as its not clear.

[littleguy]

jbsportstech said:

Agent states the assured period is protected.

I think I will have to ask shelter for advice as its not clear.

It's very clear, the assured period is NOT protected.

[jbsportstech]

littleguy said:

It's very clear, the assured period is NOT protected.

You are right they need a court order but they can issue 2 months notice AT ANYTIME, further research has shown.

On the grounds the house was offered assured for 6 months and I was not made aware of this prior to paying £312 fees can I ask for the money back?

Also I have not signed the agreement for fees i was given a copy after paying.

[Red Devil]

littleguy said:

jbsportstech said:

House is owned buy the church was left to them in a will for use to be rented to families.

I am not a minister of religion I am surveyor.

The previous tenant was a trainee vicar and has moved on.

The current vicar intends to stay 3-4 years and has his own house.

Ground 5 Minister of Religion:Mandatory / Periodic + Fixed/ Additional Notice Req
expand

The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a minister of religion, and such a minister requires it.

In addition, the Landlord must have given notice to the Tenant before the grant of tenancy that possession might be recovered on this ground.

Further, the date specified in the s.8 Notice must not be earlier than 2 months from the date of service, and (for a periodic tenancy) no earlier than the tenancy could have been determined at common law.

I read this as saying that they CAN issue proceedings at any point if they are to use it or a minister.

I beg to differ. You don't mention the source you are quoting from but the wording differs from the actual legislation. Ground 5 merely specifies the additional notice that must be given.

Housing Act 1988 Schedule 2

Ground 5

The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a minister of religion as a residence from which to perform the duties of his office and—

(a)not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground; and

(b)the court is satisfied that the dwelling-house is required for occupation by a minister of religion as such a residence.

There is nothing special with regard to the notice period in Section 8: it is the same for any AST and is not specific in respect of Ground 5 either - it applies to any of Grounds 1, 2, 5 to 7, 9 and 16 in Schedule 2.

Can you explain why you think any of this overrides Section 5 of the Housing Act 1988?

The most interesting point for me is the terms of the will. What if the proposed minister of religion tenant is a single man/woman?

[Wings]

Court order would be required by the Church, and if residency required by a church minister, then Court would grant possession with possible costs awarded against the sitting tenant/s. Very insecure period of tenancy, and not one i would want to enter into.

Housing Act 1988 schedule 2 Grounds on which court must grant possession

Ground 5
The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a minister of religion as a residence from which to perform the duties of his office and—

(a)not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground; and

(b)the court is satisfied that the dwelling-house is required for occupation by a minister of religion as such a residence.


link; http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedu...

[jbsportstech]

Wings said:

Court order would be required by the Church, and if residency required by a church minister, then Court would grant possession with possible costs awarded against the sitting tenant/s. Very insecure period of tenancy, and not one i would want to enter into.

Housing Act 1988 schedule 2 Grounds on which court must grant possession

Ground 5
The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a minister of religion as a residence from which to perform the duties of his office and—

(a)not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground; and

(b)the court is satisfied that the dwelling-house is required for occupation by a minister of religion as such a residence.


link; http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedu...

I was not made aware of this prior to paying fees totaling £312, which expect I cannot recover.

I have not signed the notice contained within the tenancy but its in there for me to sign when I return the docs.

It seems i proceed on this basis or lose my £312.

I dont believe the church would seek to do this.

The previous trainee vicar has moved on and the current vicar has a home of his own so I am assured by her grandmother who is part of the church that I can live there for 6-12 months minimum.

[jbsportstech]

Red Devil said:

I beg to differ. You don't mention the source you are quoting from but the wording differs from the actual legislation. Ground 5 merely specifies the additional notice that must be given.

Housing Act 1988 Schedule 2

Ground 5

The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a minister of religion as a residence from which to perform the duties of his office and—

(a)not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground; and

(b)the court is satisfied that the dwelling-house is required for occupation by a minister of religion as such a residence.

There is nothing special with regard to the notice period in Section 8: it is the same for any AST and is not specific in respect of Ground 5 either - it applies to any of Grounds 1, 2, 5 to 7, 9 and 16 in Schedule 2.

Can you explain why you think any of this overrides Section 5 of the Housing Act 1988?

The most interesting point for me is the terms of the will. What if the proposed minister of religion tenant is a single man/woman?

Havent seen a copy of the will but the church are law to themselves.


Its all based on her relative connected to the church stating that this was the case.

The previous vicar has two kids

[Red Devil]

Wings said:

Court order Ground would be required by the Church, and if residency required by a church minister, then Court would grant possession with possible costs awarded against the sitting tenant/s. Very insecure period of tenancy, and not one i would want to enter into.

Really? Maybe I am missing something, but where does the legislation allow the Court to grant possession before the AST period comes to an end? Section 7(6) of the Housing Act 1988 makes no mention of Ground 5.

Maybe the Church could make a creative use of Section 5(1)(c), but would the Court find that reasonable? One of the main planks of the Housing Act 1988 was to provide security of tenure. In general, you need to have done something naughty to be deprived of it.

Wings said:

Housing Act 1988 schedule 2 Grounds on which court must grant possession

Ground 5
The dwelling-house is held for the purpose of being available for occupation by a me inister of religion as a residence from which to perform the duties of his office and—

(a)not later than the beginning of the tenancy the landlord gave notice in writing to the tenant that possession might be recovered on this ground; and

(b)the court is satisfied that the dwelling-house is required for occupation by a minister of religion as such a residence.


link; http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/50/schedu...

Yes, but the key question is can the Church pounce with a notice to quit at any time during the AST? Do they not have to wait until 2 months before the end of the AST period before doing so?

jbsportstech said:

I was not made aware of this prior to paying fees totaling £312, which expect I cannot recover.

So you paid those fees before having read the tenancy document which conformed with 5(a)? Ouch!

jbsportstech said:

The previous vicar has two kids

I was thinking about the next potential occupant, not the previous one.

[jbsportstech]

Red Devil said:

I was thinking about the next potential occupant, not the previous one.

On the basis they have designated the house for the purposes of vicar and the deceased had no none relatives who or what could dispute its use. The will comment is something from a parish councilor who is active member of the local church its just what she heard/was told.

I read it that they need a court order so a court needs to be satisfied to issue one. Its not clear about ast on the grounds that outside the assured period they can issue 2 months notice anyway why would they need the clause if not to be used in the ass-period.

I don't think I would have grounds to recover the fees, however I will in future ask for a copy of the agreement prior to paying fees. Its normal practice in my experience. I think most tenants sign it and never read it!

Edited by jbsportstech on Thursday 8th May 16:34

[Eclassy]

Wings said:

Really? Maybe I am missing something, but where does the legislation allow the Court to grant possession before the AST period comes to an end? Section 7(6) of the Housing Act 1988 makes no mention of Ground 5.

It is under section 8 gaining possession. The landlord can seek to regain possession of the property before the term of the tenancy comes to an end based on one of the 17 grounds.

[jbsportstech]

Eclassy said:

It is under section 8 gaining possession. The landlord can seek to regain possession of the property before the term of the tenancy comes to an end based on one of the 17 grounds.

anything from 2 weeks to 2 months notice!

Edited by jbsportstech on Thursday 8th May 16:39