Second Hand Car Bought from Dealer - fault within 2 days
Discussion
Need some general advice and also links to any information that might be of use in this situation please.
Friend went to look at a used car, salesman came out, unlocked it allowed us to have a look round it.
We opened the bonnet, noticed the coolant level was low, then checked the oil cap and noticed some sludge. not the usual creamy stuff, just dark sludge. i said to the salesman, Head gasket? obviously he dismissed it as just a water leak.
Friend agrees to buy the car in principle with a list of snags for them to put right before he pays balance.
One of these was listed on the receipt as 'fix water leak' and a full service
fast forward a week and he picks it up, water level fine, no crap on the inside of the oil cap.
2 days later it beeps at friend saying coolant level low. he opens it up, checks and the expansion tank is empty! - he tops it up with water and calls the garage.
They tell him to bring it down at the end of the week so he parks it up less than a mile from where it beeped and didn't use it until the day we take it back to the garage.
The day comes to take it back, we top it up with water and start the journey. about 10 mins into the journey it beeps for coolant AND oil - We pull over at a garage which was just coming up and check oil which the level is fine? but coolant is again empty.
We top it up and drive 10 minutes more before it beeps, we pull in to a layby (i was following in the car behind) - top up the water and try to start it. This time it will not start. Engine sounds poorly.
Friend calls AA and gets them to recover the car and deliver it to the garage (which was another 25 miles away)
Garage has now called him and told him that, surprise surprise, the head gasket has failed and the engine got so hot it has cooked and the whole engine needs replacing.
When the car was sold it was sold with a £1000 limit warranty which would cover the cost of a 2nd hand engine but there is a clause in the policy that states if it is anything to do with overheating they will not cover it.
Questions
1) As this fault was clearly something that was on the car before my mate bought it, should this even be going through the warranty or should it be covered by themselves as a moral obligation type thing?
2) is there an Act, like the sale of goods act or something similar which gives him any argument for them to cough up?
it was a proper 2nd hand car dealer with a showroom on the A13 near westcliff, they have been there years so they seem legit .
Car wasn't particularly expensive, £4000 and it was a 2004 Audi A4 1.8T.
Any advice i can give him please? Dealer is being evasive on the phone and stating he is waiting for the warranty people to come down and inspect the car.
Friend went to look at a used car, salesman came out, unlocked it allowed us to have a look round it.
We opened the bonnet, noticed the coolant level was low, then checked the oil cap and noticed some sludge. not the usual creamy stuff, just dark sludge. i said to the salesman, Head gasket? obviously he dismissed it as just a water leak.
Friend agrees to buy the car in principle with a list of snags for them to put right before he pays balance.
One of these was listed on the receipt as 'fix water leak' and a full service
fast forward a week and he picks it up, water level fine, no crap on the inside of the oil cap.
2 days later it beeps at friend saying coolant level low. he opens it up, checks and the expansion tank is empty! - he tops it up with water and calls the garage.
They tell him to bring it down at the end of the week so he parks it up less than a mile from where it beeped and didn't use it until the day we take it back to the garage.
The day comes to take it back, we top it up with water and start the journey. about 10 mins into the journey it beeps for coolant AND oil - We pull over at a garage which was just coming up and check oil which the level is fine? but coolant is again empty.
We top it up and drive 10 minutes more before it beeps, we pull in to a layby (i was following in the car behind) - top up the water and try to start it. This time it will not start. Engine sounds poorly.
Friend calls AA and gets them to recover the car and deliver it to the garage (which was another 25 miles away)
Garage has now called him and told him that, surprise surprise, the head gasket has failed and the engine got so hot it has cooked and the whole engine needs replacing.
When the car was sold it was sold with a £1000 limit warranty which would cover the cost of a 2nd hand engine but there is a clause in the policy that states if it is anything to do with overheating they will not cover it.
Questions
1) As this fault was clearly something that was on the car before my mate bought it, should this even be going through the warranty or should it be covered by themselves as a moral obligation type thing?
2) is there an Act, like the sale of goods act or something similar which gives him any argument for them to cough up?
it was a proper 2nd hand car dealer with a showroom on the A13 near westcliff, they have been there years so they seem legit .
Car wasn't particularly expensive, £4000 and it was a 2004 Audi A4 1.8T.
Any advice i can give him please? Dealer is being evasive on the phone and stating he is waiting for the warranty people to come down and inspect the car.
Just had a read up and Sale of goods Act 1979 covers him, i think
Sale of goods act said:
The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) states that goods should be:
Of satisfactory quality - Goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet a standard which a reasonable person would regard as being satisfactory, taking account of any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all other relevant circumstances. Satisfactory quality also includes the state and condition of the goods, their fitness for the purpose for which they were supplied, appearance and finish, their safety and durability and whether they are free from minor defects.
Public statements made by the trader, manufacturer or their representative relating to specific characteristics of the goods, particularly in advertising or on labelling must be accurate and are a factor in determining whether goods are of satisfactory quality.
Fit for the purpose made known to the trader - Goods must be fit for their general purpose and any particular purpose that a consumer makes known to the trader at the time of purchase . For example if you buy a sleeping bag it must work as a sleeping bag. If you make it clear before you buy it that you need it for -40 degree conditions and the trader states it will be suitable then it should be suitable.
Of satisfactory quality - Goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet a standard which a reasonable person would regard as being satisfactory, taking account of any description applied to them, the price (if relevant) and all other relevant circumstances. Satisfactory quality also includes the state and condition of the goods, their fitness for the purpose for which they were supplied, appearance and finish, their safety and durability and whether they are free from minor defects.
Public statements made by the trader, manufacturer or their representative relating to specific characteristics of the goods, particularly in advertising or on labelling must be accurate and are a factor in determining whether goods are of satisfactory quality.
Fit for the purpose made known to the trader - Goods must be fit for their general purpose and any particular purpose that a consumer makes known to the trader at the time of purchase . For example if you buy a sleeping bag it must work as a sleeping bag. If you make it clear before you buy it that you need it for -40 degree conditions and the trader states it will be suitable then it should be suitable.
Sale of goods act also said:
What are you entitled to?
If the goods do not conform to the contract, in other words are not of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or as described, you are legally entitled to one of the following remedies:
A FULL REFUND
You are entitled to a full refund if you have not yet 'accepted' the goods. The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) states you have accepted the goods when:
you inform the trader that you have accepted the goods
you use the goods in a way which is inconsistent with the trader's ownership. For example, if you have altered the goods in any way or customised them then you may be deemed to have accepted them.
You keep the goods for longer than a reasonable time without telling the trader that you have rejected them. You are entitled to a reasonable opportunity to examine the goods and this should take place within a reasonable time. The law does not specify what is 'reasonable' and ultimately a court would determine this based on the facts of each case. You should, therefore, contact the trader as soon as you find the fault as a delay may mean you lose your right to a refund.
If acceptance has taken place, the following remedies are available:
REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT
You are entitled to ask the trader to repair or replace the goods at their expense. The trader can refuse to do so if the repair or replacement is impossible or disproportionate (too costly) when compared to other remedies.
The repair or replacement must be carried out within a reasonable time and without causing you significant inconvenience.
Note:
Even if you have not accepted the goods, you are still entitled to opt for repair or replacement of the goods if that is what you prefer. If these remedies take an unreasonable length of time or cause you significant inconvenience or do not resolve the problem, you are still entitled to a refund.
The remedies of repair or replacement, reduction in the purchase price or rescission (cancelling) of the contract do not apply to hire purchase contracts as other laws apply. Contact the Citizens Advice consumer service for further advice.
RESCISSION (cancelling) OR REDUCTION IN PRICE
If repair or replacement takes an unreasonable length of time, causes you significant inconvenience or if they are not possible, then you are entitled to claim a reduction in the purchase price or to rescind (cancel) the contract and claim a partial refund based on your usage of the goods whilst you have had them.
DAMAGES
If you have been sold faulty goods, you are entitled to claim from the trader any direct expenses which you have incurred. This is called consequential loss. For example, if your washing machine developed a fault and clothing was torn, you could claim for the cost of the clothing as well as seeking repair, replacement, full or partial refund from the trader.
Damages is an interesting one - they've had the car for 3 weeks now, Getting about has been difficult for him..If the goods do not conform to the contract, in other words are not of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose or as described, you are legally entitled to one of the following remedies:
A FULL REFUND
You are entitled to a full refund if you have not yet 'accepted' the goods. The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) states you have accepted the goods when:
you inform the trader that you have accepted the goods
you use the goods in a way which is inconsistent with the trader's ownership. For example, if you have altered the goods in any way or customised them then you may be deemed to have accepted them.
You keep the goods for longer than a reasonable time without telling the trader that you have rejected them. You are entitled to a reasonable opportunity to examine the goods and this should take place within a reasonable time. The law does not specify what is 'reasonable' and ultimately a court would determine this based on the facts of each case. You should, therefore, contact the trader as soon as you find the fault as a delay may mean you lose your right to a refund.
If acceptance has taken place, the following remedies are available:
REPAIR OR REPLACEMENT
You are entitled to ask the trader to repair or replace the goods at their expense. The trader can refuse to do so if the repair or replacement is impossible or disproportionate (too costly) when compared to other remedies.
The repair or replacement must be carried out within a reasonable time and without causing you significant inconvenience.
Note:
Even if you have not accepted the goods, you are still entitled to opt for repair or replacement of the goods if that is what you prefer. If these remedies take an unreasonable length of time or cause you significant inconvenience or do not resolve the problem, you are still entitled to a refund.
The remedies of repair or replacement, reduction in the purchase price or rescission (cancelling) of the contract do not apply to hire purchase contracts as other laws apply. Contact the Citizens Advice consumer service for further advice.
RESCISSION (cancelling) OR REDUCTION IN PRICE
If repair or replacement takes an unreasonable length of time, causes you significant inconvenience or if they are not possible, then you are entitled to claim a reduction in the purchase price or to rescind (cancel) the contract and claim a partial refund based on your usage of the goods whilst you have had them.
DAMAGES
If you have been sold faulty goods, you are entitled to claim from the trader any direct expenses which you have incurred. This is called consequential loss. For example, if your washing machine developed a fault and clothing was torn, you could claim for the cost of the clothing as well as seeking repair, replacement, full or partial refund from the trader.
Be firm but polite, as soon as you get aggressive or shout, they've won and won't help.
When I bought my car mine had a few cosmetic blemishes which I asked to be sorted as a condition of sale.
They missed 2 and I said that I was not happy with the result as it was one that was specifically highlighted. They then repaired it, mopped the whole car and gave it a coating of wax, because I didn't go apes
t.
Firm but fair, once you've given them opportunities and they've come back and asked for paying, then start to refer to rights, and possibly trading standards etcetera..
When I bought my car mine had a few cosmetic blemishes which I asked to be sorted as a condition of sale.
They missed 2 and I said that I was not happy with the result as it was one that was specifically highlighted. They then repaired it, mopped the whole car and gave it a coating of wax, because I didn't go apes
t.Firm but fair, once you've given them opportunities and they've come back and asked for paying, then start to refer to rights, and possibly trading standards etcetera..
You don't want a car with an unknown engine and the fault was there when he bought it. He should ask them to give him a refund. Write them a letter, giving them 7 days, and take it down there. IME in similar circumstances they'll put up a fight but keep calm and mention that you've asked trading standards for advice and you should get a result.
jamoor said:
I'd expect a full refund on this, I don't think he should have any problem either. how did he pay?
He paid bank transfer - although there was a £750 part ex as well which may complicate things.I've spoken to him and he loves the car and i think hes on a 'better the devil you know' kind of mindset, used engine that has under the miles the old one did with a years guarantee is what we will be going for i think.
for a £4k 10 year old car you can't expect them to put a brand new engine in it i don't think - lets not be unreasonable !
Pixelpeep said:
He paid bank transfer - although there was a £750 part ex as well which may complicate things.
I've spoken to him and he loves the car and i think hes on a 'better the devil you know' kind of mindset, used engine that has under the miles the old one did with a years guarantee is what we will be going for i think.
for a £4k 10 year old car you can't expect them to put a brand new engine in it i don't think - lets not be unreasonable !
It shouldn't be unreasonable that he should receive the money he paid them back.I've spoken to him and he loves the car and i think hes on a 'better the devil you know' kind of mindset, used engine that has under the miles the old one did with a years guarantee is what we will be going for i think.
for a £4k 10 year old car you can't expect them to put a brand new engine in it i don't think - lets not be unreasonable !
Putting a recon'd engine into a car isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I would ask to see it first, to check for damage to the pistons/overall engine prior to fitting.
Mr SFJ said:
Pixelpeep said:
He paid bank transfer - although there was a £750 part ex as well which may complicate things.
I've spoken to him and he loves the car and i think hes on a 'better the devil you know' kind of mindset, used engine that has under the miles the old one did with a years guarantee is what we will be going for i think.
for a £4k 10 year old car you can't expect them to put a brand new engine in it i don't think - lets not be unreasonable !
It shouldn't be unreasonable that he should receive the money he paid them back.I've spoken to him and he loves the car and i think hes on a 'better the devil you know' kind of mindset, used engine that has under the miles the old one did with a years guarantee is what we will be going for i think.
for a £4k 10 year old car you can't expect them to put a brand new engine in it i don't think - lets not be unreasonable !
Putting a recon'd engine into a car isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I would ask to see it first, to check for damage to the pistons/overall engine prior to fitting.
Pixelpeep said:
He doesn't want his money back, he wants that car. We are going down there this weekend with a letter stating his position. Will give 14 days for a completion or it will be a full refund required.
Then suggest option 2. get a recon'd engine for the car, and then ask to inspect prior to fitting to check for piston damage of damage to the head. That's what I would do if he wants the car.
Pixelpeep said:
He doesn't want his money back, he wants that car. We are going down there this weekend with a letter stating his position. Will give 14 days for a completion or it will be a full refund required.
10 year old A4s are ten a penny, surely? Does he think he got a particularly good deal or something?Bill said:
Pixelpeep said:
He doesn't want his money back, he wants that car. We are going down there this weekend with a letter stating his position. Will give 14 days for a completion or it will be a full refund required.
10 year old A4s are ten a penny, surely? Does he think he got a particularly good deal or something?
I would guess the garage will offer a refund, then flight the car via auction or as a broken car.
If they try and fix it then they are opening themselves to a world of hassle as other things go wrong.
It's a £4k car.
Probably arounf £1k worth of profit.
Fitting a new engine will cost more than that.
If they try and fix it then they are opening themselves to a world of hassle as other things go wrong.
It's a £4k car.
Probably arounf £1k worth of profit.
Fitting a new engine will cost more than that.
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