Contract breach?

[e21Mark]

A few months ago, I was contacted by a friend, who said that he had been dealing with a chap looking to buy track / race cars and spares. He knew I had a partially finished hillclimb car and wondered if I would sell? I told him that the guy could take a look and we'd go from there.

A week later this chap arrives at my home to view said car. He spends half an hour looking over it, telling me what was wrong and wasn't to FIA specifications etc (it was never built to any FIA regs anyway) and generally tried to impress me with his knowledge of racing and classic BMW. (He failed miserably) We chatted about price, whereupon I said a figure and informed him that this was the price, end of. What I did say though, was that if it was a cash, no nonsense sale I would let him have the alloy wheels as a gesture of goodwill. He agreed and left a £200 deposit.

Over the next few weeks, despite repeated promises to pay the balance owed, I received nothing but excuses. These included his wife being moved to a hospice (she has since recovered!), his being mugged and their taking his phone (although they kindly left it turned on) and eventually his being gravely unwell himself. He did eventually pay me, although it was over several instalments, before turning up with some young lad and finally collecting the car, when I threatened storage costs. When he arrived, I saw him from my kitchen window, but when he reached my door he was using a crutch to walk. The next half hour was like a Laurel & Hardy film, as these 2 guys tried to load the car. Before they left, he asked me about the alloy wheels and I told him that I was no longer giving them to him. I reminded him that they were being given as a goodwill gesture, but given the stress and hassle he had caused over the past few weeks, any goodwill was long since gone. I also reminded him of the repeated demands for payment etc. He left and that was the last I heard from him.

At the same time as this was going on, he had also done pretty much the same thing to 2 other people I know. He turned up, agreed to buy cars / parts, left a token deposit (but would take any parts he could, which meant his deposit was pointless), then had to be constantly chased for payment. Both of these people have refused to have further dealings with him, as he is a very devious guy and happy to tell whatever lies he can, to excuse his behaviour. I was just glad to see the back of the guy and regret ever selling my car to him. Especially given that the price he got, was when I thought we had mutual friends.

Anyway, yesterday I get a letter from a debt recovery company. It states how I am in breach of our original contract because I did not give him the alloy wheels. He also claims the car wasn't fitted with an LSD as was agreed. (it was, because I fitted it). As a result they are demanding payment of £2 475. The wheels in question actually retail at £349 so quite how they arrive at £2000 I have no idea?

My initial thought was to just put the letter in the bin, but I'm actually pretty pissed off at the nerve of this guy. I had weeks of having to cover the money he owed me, after he repeatedly let me down over payment. At no time did I ever say that paying instalments was acceptable either. I had to spend a night in an airport waiting lounge as his failure to pay meant I couldn't get a hotel. Any contact was voided by his actions, not mine.

Really, I just need to know if I have a case for a counter claim for punitive costs? Also, as I have an invoice for the cost of the wheels, is a claim for £2000 fraudulent? It is clear that the guy is hoping to profit from this threatened court action, by deliberately exaggerating cost.

Any help / advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[t400ble]

I'd be straight on the phone to him!

[JustinP1]

e21Mark said:

Also, as I have an invoice for the cost of the wheels, is a claim for £2000 fraudulent? It is clear that the guy is hoping to profit from this threatened court action, by deliberately exaggerating cost.

Any help / advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

I guess his angle is that he had to buy replacement wheels due to your breach, and they cost £2000.


The long and the short of it is that the debt collection company have no powers to do anything. If he wanted to enforce it he'd start a court claim, then it could actually be enforced.

In short it sounds like you are dealing with a fantasist idiot, and it's up to you how much hassle you want from him. I'd consider:


1) Do nothing. It would have taken him 15 minutes to instruct a debt collection company to send a letter, he's unlikely to invest more time.

2) If you want him to go away, offer to give him the wheels in full and final settlement.


The last thing I would do is start a claim against him. You'd be claiming that he breached oral, implied terms which he will of course deny, and you will certainly get a counterclaim against you, that he would have more chance of winning. That means you'll have 6 months of stress and have to go to a court hearing at his home court for a piddling sum. It's just not worth it.

[e21Mark]

I don't have a number for him, or any real desire to speak to the guy. He has caused me nothing but grief and I find it hard to trust a word he says anyway. Added to which this demand is being made via a collection agency.

My initial thoughts are to invite them to take Court action, so that I can state my case and prove him to be deliberately exaggerating his claim for financial gain.

[DaveH23]

Private or trade sale?

My understanding is that regardless of what was offered if it is private then he has absolutely no come back.

Happy to be corrected though.

[JustinP1]

e21Mark said:

My initial thoughts are to invite them to take Court action, so that I can state my case and prove him to be deliberately exaggerating his claim for financial gain.

As an experienced litigant, who knows how bloody frustrating the process is my advice would be to do absolutely nothing for a week.

Your emotions will have subsided, and you will look at it/him at the waste of time and the thief of life-force that it is.

[Davel]

He has nothing in writing stating that the wheels were part of the deal anyway.

It's his word against yours and I doubt it would go any further really.

[Tribal Chestnut]

Was the promise to give him the wheels FOC oral or written down? If the former, then deny it, if pushed.

[e21Mark]

JustinP1 said:

e21Mark said:

My initial thoughts are to invite them to take Court action, so that I can state my case and prove him to be deliberately exaggerating his claim for financial gain.

As an experienced litigant, who knows how bloody frustrating the process is my advice would be to do absolutely nothing for a week.

Your emotions will have subsided, and you will look at it/him at the waste of time and the thief of life-force that it is.

This is pretty much my thinking already. The guy is a cockwomble of the highest order.

I have until the 21st to respond to this letter anyway but thanks for replies so far.

[anonymous-user]

DaveH23 said:

Private or trade sale?

My understanding is that regardless of what was offered if it is private then he has absolutely no come back.

Happy to be corrected though.

This is me correcting you.

Trade or private, contractual promises must be kept. Your misunderstanding of the law probably derives from the fact that in a private sale there are no statutory implied terms as to quality and suitability of goods. The idea that a contract made by a non trader cannot be enforced is daft, if you think about it for a second.

OP, the guy is a no doubt a git but you may be in his hands to some extent because you made a contract and then you arguably broke it. You agreed that the price included the wheels. Calling it goodwill was arguably just verbiage. The deal was X pounds buys car and wheels. If you had stipulated that payment by a set date was a condition on the basis of which the wheels would be included, you would be OK, but it appears that you did not. "Cash no nonsense" is rather vague as a condition. At what point, the Judge might ask, did the "nonsense" become sufficient to drop the wheels from the deal? You might have argument that the deal was varied by later agreement but your account does not make that sound like much of a runner.

You have no counter claim, but if the claim is made or pursued unreasonably you may be able to obtain costs. There is no such thing as punitive costs. The most you could hope for are what are called indemnity costs. Costs are discretionary and usually not awarded in small claim cases.

To avoid hassle, if the claim is pursued, you could make an open offer to give him the wheels or pay the reasonable second hand cost of the wheels. You could hang tough and see if the guy is just bluffing. Write everything politely and with a view to a Judge reading it.

If by any rare chance this goes to Court, tell the truth. Ignore internet "experts" who say "it's just his word against yours". Courts routinely decide on one word against another and Judges are quite good at spotting who is lying (although not perfect at it, of course).

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 9th May 10:52

[anonymous-user]

Tribal Chestnut said:

Was the promise to give him the wheels FOC oral or written down? If the former, then deny it, if pushed.

OP, ignore this rubbish.

[e21Mark]

Breadvan72 said:

To avoid hassle, if the claim is pursued, you could make an open offer to pay the reasonable second hand cost of the wheels. You could hang tough and see if the guy is just bluffing. Write everything politely and with a view to a Judge reading it.

If by any rare chance this goes to Court, tell the truth. Ignore internet "experts" who say "it's just his word against yours". Courts routinely decide on one word against another and Judges are quite good at spotting who is lying (although not perfect at it, of course).

Thanks.

I had to take someone to Court a couple of years ago and the judge saw right through all the rubbish and lies that were told. I confess, that in this case I imagined any contract (verbal or otherwise) was breached in his having to be chased for payment and threatened with added costs/charges? His avoiding payment hit me financially and it became clear that this is his usual MO.

[JustinP1]

e21Mark said:

JustinP1 said:

e21Mark said:

My initial thoughts are to invite them to take Court action, so that I can state my case and prove him to be deliberately exaggerating his claim for financial gain.

As an experienced litigant, who knows how bloody frustrating the process is my advice would be to do absolutely nothing for a week.

Your emotions will have subsided, and you will look at it/him at the waste of time and the thief of life-force that it is.

This is pretty much my thinking already. The guy is a cockwomble of the highest order.

I have until the 21st to respond to this letter anyway but thanks for replies so far.

What is the letter?

Is it specifically a warning of legal action?

Or is it some kind of pseudo-collection warning?

If it's anything like the latter, then you can safely ignore it. If it's the former, then you may be advised to rethink the strategy as you may end up with the hassle of a claim. If the claim is along the lines of:

Fool: "He told me the wheels were included."

You: "Yes, I said that they would be included as long as you didn't fk around."

Fool: "No you didn't... and in any case... what constitutes 'fking around'... and when did you put me on notice that I was 'fking around' and would lose the wheels?"


In that situation, I would suggest that the buyer has a stronger case. At that point, should he provide an invoice for £2000 replacement wheels, it is you then on the back foot trying to state that he is being unreasonable...

There is certain risk and no very little reward for you going to court on this one IMHO.

[anonymous-user]

Unless a contract states at the outset that time for payment is of the essence, or the seller later notifies the buyer that time is now of the essence, then a late payment is not a repudiation of the contract. A contract can include other stipulations for time of payment and consequences of late payment, but it seems that you didn't have any here.

If the guy comes back at you, give him the wheels and have done. Lesson learned - if you are dealing with someone who seems to be a dhead who may be trouble, stop dealing with him.

[JustinP1]

e21Mark said:

I confess, that in this case I imagined any contract (verbal or otherwise) was breached in his having to be chased for payment and threatened with added costs/charges?

When the contract was formed, did you categorically agree a date for full payment?

If so, did you put him on notice of his breach when that date expired?


Unless you can answer yes to both of these questions, and prove that to the satisfaction of the court, then your presumption is incorrect.

[aw51 121565]

e21Mark said:

I have until the 21st to respond to this letter ...

Says who???

You are taking this far too seriously - quite understandably, though, it must be said .

Your response should be along the lines of:

---

Dear etc

any alleged debt is denied, refer this matter back to your client and don't contact me again.

Yours etc

---

You could also state that any further contact will be deemed to be harrassment (see pepipoo's 'private parking forum' for detals on how to incorporate this into the letter).

Don't be bullied by the debt collection people - they're utterly powerless and you need to take this on board ASAP . Do not engage with them after sending your letter (as above).

As for the weapons grade clown who engaged them, suggest that he issue court papers .

[e21Mark]

JustinP1 said:

e21Mark said:

JustinP1 said:

e21Mark said:

My initial thoughts are to invite them to take Court action, so that I can state my case and prove him to be deliberately exaggerating his claim for financial gain.

As an experienced litigant, who knows how bloody frustrating the process is my advice would be to do absolutely nothing for a week.

Your emotions will have subsided, and you will look at it/him at the waste of time and the thief of life-force that it is.

This is pretty much my thinking already. The guy is a cockwomble of the highest order.

I have until the 21st to respond to this letter anyway but thanks for replies so far.

What is the letter?

Is it specifically a warning of legal action?

Or is it some kind of pseudo-collection warning?

If it's anything like the latter, then you can safely ignore it. If it's the former, then you may be advised to rethink the strategy as you may end up with the hassle of a claim. If the claim is along the lines of:

Fool: "He told me the wheels were included."

You: "Yes, I said that they would be included as long as you didn't fk around."

Fool: "No you didn't... and in any case... what constitutes 'fking around'... and when did you put me on notice that I was 'fking around' and would lose the wheels?"


In that situation, I would suggest that the buyer has a stronger case. At that point, should he provide an invoice for £2000 replacement wheels, it is you then on the back foot trying to state that he is being unreasonable...

There is certain risk and no very little reward for you going to court on this one IMHO.

It says ''Letter before Court Action''.

Even if he can provide an invoice for a £2k set of wheels, what does it matter when the wheels in question are worth £200? What justification can there be for trying to say that I should meet that cost?

[anonymous-user]

aw51 121565 said:

...

You could also state that any further contact will be deemed to be harrassment (see pepipoo's 'private parking forum' for detals on how to incorporate this into the letter).

...

Ignore this. Such a statement just makes you look like a dick. Pepipoo is Dick Central. Ignore.

[anonymous-user]

e21Mark said:

It says ''Letter before Court Action''.

Even if he can provide an invoice for a £2k set of wheels, what does it matter when the wheels in question are worth £200? What justification can there be for trying to say that I should meet that cost?

It's just a letter.

His max clam is the reasonable cost of buying the same or similar wheels in equivalent condition. If an inflated claim is pursued, the claimant may be at risk as to costs. Give him the wheels and he has no claim. You may be over thinking and over worrying this situation.

OK, it may rankle to get this tosspot think he has got a win against you, but to be blunt that arises because you were not prudent in your dealings with him. Sorry, but bite it and move on.

[JustinP1]

aw51 121565 said:

...suggest that he issue court papers .

Someone did that to me once. After denying in the same letter that they had received our written terms.

When the court papers arrived, he wrote a ham-fisted Defence trying to pull apart our written terms. The same ones that he had never seen, and I didn't send to him.

In the hearing, he had a very hard time getting back from the fact that the Judge could see full well the guy was disreputable, not to be trusted, and was simply using the hassle and money of the legal system to avoid justice.


If the letter that the OP has received is a warning of legal action, he is duty bound under the Civil Procedure Rules to respond, stating his case.

Additionally, as IMHO in court he would most likely lose the case after 6 months of hassle and wasted life, it would not be something I would be inviting.