3rd Brake Light

[NDA]

Is it illegal to obscure a 3rd brake light with luggage?

I'm travelling through France in a couple of months and unfortunately the single suitcase on the rack of the car obscures the brake light.

It would be quite easy to remove this 3rd light altogether, making it seem that one was never fitted. I'm not sure of the law either here in the UK or France.

[Slidingpillar]

No idea but the French police have a reputation for marching 'les rosbifs' to a cash point to pay the fine there and then. Not that I've had problems.

However, quite a few Morgan owners have made or adapted a LED light unit to sit strapped on top of the case to allow a central light to be seen.

[fjord]

Doesnt matter if it works or not in the UK. Unsure about france.

[shakotan]

fjord said:

Doesnt matter if it works or not in the UK. Unsure about france.

It's an MOT fail if a third-eye brake light isn't working, so expect a tug from Plod.

[Vanya]

shakotan said:

fjord said:

Doesnt matter if it works or not in the UK. Unsure about france.

It's an MOT fail if a third-eye brake light isn't working, so expect a tug from Plod.

That's the interweb for you, OP!

If I were you though I'd be guided by Shakotan's reply.

More than that, if it feels like it's probably illegal, then it more than likely is... these days, sadly.

[russell_ram]

Vanya said:

shakotan said:

fjord said:

Doesnt matter if it works or not in the UK. Unsure about france.

It's an MOT fail if a third-eye brake light isn't working, so expect a tug from Plod.

That's the interweb for you, OP!

If I were you though I'd be guided by Shakotan's reply.

More than that, if it feels like it's probably illegal, then it more than likely is... these days, sadly.

That's the interweb for you, if I were you I'd be guided by fjord's reply (as it's the correct one).

LOL

[mike-r]

If there's one there, it has to be working, otherwise it can mislead traffic.

Much like if you have a spare it has to legal, if you don't have one it doesn't matter.

Unsure about removing it altogether as all cars after a certain year (2001-ish?) were legally required to have a 3rd brake light I believe.

[shakotan]

russell_ram said:

Vanya said:

shakotan said:

fjord said:

Doesnt matter if it works or not in the UK. Unsure about france.

It's an MOT fail if a third-eye brake light isn't working, so expect a tug from Plod.

That's the interweb for you, OP!

If I were you though I'd be guided by Shakotan's reply.

More than that, if it feels like it's probably illegal, then it more than likely is... these days, sadly.

That's the interweb for you, if I were you I'd be guided by fjord's reply (as it's the correct one).

LOL

Vehicle and Operator Services Agency
The MOT Inspection Manual
Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing
4th March 2014

Section 1 - Lamps, Reflectors and Electrical Equipment
1.2 Stop Lamps

Additional Stop Lamps where fitted and connected must be tested

[amancalledrob]

shakotan said:

Vehicle and Operator Services Agency
The MOT Inspection Manual
Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing
4th March 2014

Section 1 - Lamps, Reflectors and Electrical Equipment
1.2 Stop Lamps

Additional Stop Lamps where fitted and connected must be tested

Does it go on to say anything about the desired outcome of the test, or is it ok whatever happens as long as you know whether it works or not?

[shakotan]

amancalledrob said:

shakotan said:

Vehicle and Operator Services Agency
The MOT Inspection Manual
Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing
4th March 2014

Section 1 - Lamps, Reflectors and Electrical Equipment
1.2 Stop Lamps

Additional Stop Lamps where fitted and connected must be tested

Does it go on to say anything about the desired outcome of the test, or is it ok whatever happens as long as you know whether it works or not?

Er, what?

If an item is testable, it must pass the test. If it doesn't work, it doesn't pass the test.

[russell_ram]

shakotan said:

Vehicle and Operator Services Agency
The MOT Inspection Manual
Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing
4th March 2014

Section 1 - Lamps, Reflectors and Electrical Equipment
1.2 Stop Lamps

Additional Stop Lamps where fitted and connected must be tested

Ah, the critical wording being 'if connected'. I have passed many a test with a 'it's disconnected' statement. Very useful when it's part of a tailgate where the wiring has broken through bending - rendering it 'disconnected'.

Edited by russell_ram on Monday 12th May 16:05

[russell_ram]

shakotan said:

Er, what?

If an item is testable, it must pass the test. If it doesn't work, it doesn't pass the test.

In this particular case, it can be fitted and disconnected and still pass. Perhaps not in the 'spirit' of the test but, hey ho, they should word the regs better.

Edited by russell_ram on Monday 12th May 16:06

Edited by russell_ram on Monday 12th May 16:07

[balls-out]

mike-r said:

If there's one there, it has to be working, otherwise it can mislead traffic.

Much like if you have a spare it has to legal, if you don't have one it doesn't matter.

Unsure about removing it altogether as all cars after a certain year (2001-ish?) were legally required to have a 3rd brake light I believe.

Much like anyone who quotes the old "if you have a spare it has to legal", clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Retroman]

shakotan said:

It's an MOT fail if a third-eye brake light isn't working, so expect a tug from Plod.

Not strictly true.
If the third brake light doesn't illuminate at all and the MOT inspector can't visibly see if it's connected or not, then VOSA guidelines state they give the presenter of the vehicle benefit of the doubt and it's pass and advise.

It's only a fail where it can be confirmed it is connected and not working.

[Buzz84]

Retroman said:

Not strictly true.
If the third brake light doesn't illuminate at all and the MOT inspector can't visibly see if it's connected or not, then VOSA guidelines state they give the presenter of the vehicle benefit of the doubt and it's pass and advise.

It's only a fail where it can be confirmed it is connected and not working.

That's how Mrs Buzz's MGTF passed recently, it didn't illuminate at all, yet if one out of the 10 or so lamps in it had lit up they would have known it was connected and it'd failed.

If it is known to be connected it must work.

[NDA]

I think I might be best advised to remove it whilst it's obscured by luggage - it's a simple to job to take it off. It's a light on a stalk, so removes completely.

[amancalledrob]

shakotan said:

amancalledrob said:

shakotan said:

Vehicle and Operator Services Agency
The MOT Inspection Manual
Private Passenger and Light Commercial Vehicle Testing
4th March 2014

Section 1 - Lamps, Reflectors and Electrical Equipment
1.2 Stop Lamps

Additional Stop Lamps where fitted and connected must be tested

Does it go on to say anything about the desired outcome of the test, or is it ok whatever happens as long as you know whether it works or not?

Er, what?

If an item is testable, it must pass the test. If it doesn't work, it doesn't pass the test.

The bit you've quoted only requires items must be tested, it mentions nothing of a need to pass. I was just making a bad joke about that :-)

[QBee]

So what are the requirements for third brake lights when on the Incontinent?
Are there any other non-UK requirements?
Do we still need red triangles, spare lamp bulb sets, breathalysers, condoms, etc etc?

[Slidingpillar]

1/ Fit existing light with a socket.

2/ Buy one of these, or something similar:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/BRAKE-LIGHT-STOP-BEAM-SIGN...

3/ Fit it with a plug.

4/ Bungee strap or similar to suitcase and plug in.

5/ Stop moaning

[Cunning Punt]

QBee said:

So what are the requirements for third brake lights when on the Incontinent?

French law says you need either 2 or 3 working brake lights visible from 150m (code de la route R313-7).

On that basis I think the OP would be ok with the third one being concealed, especially on something like a Morgan. There's a fair amount of plod discretion, and while it's not impossible for them to ask if they can have a curious nosey around the car, they'd have to be seriously bored and sure of themselves to issue a fine for a non-visible third light IMO, provided the other two are in order (and provided the driver isn't doing something else naughty and then giving them enough lip to make them want to make his life difficult). There are plenty of bigger, less doubtful fish to fry.

The French MOT (Contrôle Technique) is stricter than UK I think - it's a fail if the third light isn't fitted on a post-2000 car, or is present but damaged/not working/incorrectly placed (ie off-centre, below or between the other brake lights etc). None of which should be a problem for the OP, since a) no one expects him to pass a French MOT on a UK-registered car, b) police aren't expected or qualified to be substitute MOT testers, and c) he could pass it easily enough anyway by removing the baggage.

QBee said:

Do we still need :

* red triangle[s] : yes, 1
* spare lamp bulb sets : nope, but there are powers to immobilise the vehicle if bulbs are out
* breathalysers : supposedly required but there's no sanction if you don't. Don't bother.
* condoms : recommended
* hi-vis jacket : at least 1, must be accessible from cabin
* extinguisher : recommended but not required
* first-aid kit : recommended but not required

(all the above apply to France, other countries have different rules. The AA website has a chart, somewhere, listing the various requirements per country)