Claiming unused land adjoining garden
Discussion
I know this has been covered before, but whatcha gonna do?
One of my work colleagues has a small patch of waste ground full of trees/shrubs adjoining her garden.
She thought it belonged to the local council but when she asked them about getting some of the trees cut by them, they told her that according to the Land Registry no one owns it.
I have a feeling there is a legal method (adverse possession) that would enable her to incorporate it into her garden after a fixed period of time if nobody objected.
Can anyone advise on what she would have to do?
One of my work colleagues has a small patch of waste ground full of trees/shrubs adjoining her garden.
She thought it belonged to the local council but when she asked them about getting some of the trees cut by them, they told her that according to the Land Registry no one owns it.
I have a feeling there is a legal method (adverse possession) that would enable her to incorporate it into her garden after a fixed period of time if nobody objected.
Can anyone advise on what she would have to do?
Fish said:
Fence it and maintain it for 12 years then claim under possesory title. Not a quick solution and someone will own it. If it isn't registered title then it hasn't been sold/transferred since 1990 and will be on the old Deed system.
It seems LA have checked with Land Registry and it is not registered which means old rules of 12 years.That isn’t to say that it isn't Council Land as there are acres of that which has been missed off on VFR of Council Title and some Councils who have still yet to register large areas of their land holdings. They are not forced to do so and why would they when they have owned X Park since 1853, etc.
Get it FULLY fenced in now. The LR are playing by their own rules (land Registration Rules) these days and are ignoring the letter of the Law of Property Act 1925 when it comes to registration.
http://www.landregistry.gov.uk/professional/guides
Guide 5 looks the most likely for quick hinters but if your man is serious about this he should speak to a solicitor first to clarify all they need to do if they have any doubt.
NB. This is not legal advice, just advice that your friend needs some!
about land ownership in E&W. I can see the eyes clouding over from behind my screen...Johnnytheboy said:
...I have a feeling there is a legal method (adverse possession) that would enable her to incorporate it into her garden after a fixed period of time if nobody objected.
You have it the wrong way round. If she incorporates the land into her garden now (or otherwise takes possession of it - note comment on fence), she might, in time, be able to claim legal title to the land. Johnnytheboy said:
She now wants to know how to go back twelve years to when she first moved in, and fence it then!
Sadly for her she can't.In addition to that she has now, by raising the question of title with the Council, prevented herself from being able to swear that she has disclaimed the title of all others...
If she wishes to go the correct and legal route, as things stand today, she needs to fence in and wait 12 years from the date of completion of the fencing works. She can ten apply to the LR.
Her alternatives are unattractive as they include (effectively) perjury or tracking down the current land owner and getting them to prove title and then be willing to transfer it to her for free.
I had to advise a client in similar terms a few years back. I found out that they decided to try it themselves by their application was rejected as the fencing they used had a date stamped on it and the LR Surveyor spotted this and the small fact that when they viewed it on Google Maps (an essential tool of the trade for many in property these days) it clearly showed that the land in question had not been fenced in as little as 5 years ago...
Do it right, do it by the book and your friend should get a result. Mess about and it may work out, but more likely they will queer the pitch.
BTW do not forget that if she fences and wants to sell on in 2, 3, 4, etc years time she can sell with “all such right, title and interest” as she may have in that land.
Remove the boundary between your 'friends' land and the bit they want to claim, then swear blind it's been like that since the 1990's back when you first started using it as if it was yours (sorry, your 'friends') to the exclusion of everyone else.
EDIT. Unless, of course, they've already blabbed to the council and a 'friend' has grassed them to the internet.
EDIT. Unless, of course, they've already blabbed to the council and a 'friend' has grassed them to the internet.
Edited by johnny fotze on Monday 12th May 15:54
johnny fotze said:
Remove the boundary between your 'friends' land and the bit they want to claim, then swear blind it's been like that since the 1990's back when you first started using it as if it was yours (sorry, your 'friends') to the exclusion of everyone else
- cough*
Rud-boy said:
Her alternatives are unattractive as they include (effectively) perjury...
Rude-boy said:
johnny fotze said:
Remove the boundary between your 'friends' land and the bit they want to claim, then swear blind it's been like that since the 1990's back when you first started using it as if it was yours (sorry, your 'friends') to the exclusion of everyone else
- cough*
Rud-boy said:
Her alternatives are unattractive as they include (effectively) perjury...
I do know of someone who did claim the piece of land next to his. He had lived next to it for well over the 12 years, there was no fence between the two pieces of land, it had no edge fence/hedge at all, and the only thing he did to it was cut the grass. I believe even after the 12 yrs, and you make a claim, someone can still come along and say it's theirs. Because of this, I believe you can take out an insurance policy to protect yourself.
robinessex said:
I do know of someone who did claim the piece of land next to his. He had lived next to it for well over the 12 years, there was no fence between the two pieces of land, it had no edge fence/hedge at all, and the only thing he did to it was cut the grass. I believe even after the 12 yrs, and you make a claim, someone can still come along and say it's theirs. Because of this, I believe you can take out an insurance policy to protect yourself.
That would be very, very old then as since 2003 it has certainly had to be fully fenced in. LR last year rejected a claim to a parcel alongside a Client's house on the basis they had only put posts up and not linked the posts with a chain. Under LPA1925 this would be fine, but under the Land Registration Rules it would not pass the test.
Once you have AP and a registered title the chances are they will only give you what is known as Possessory title. You can still be kicked off if the paper title owner crops up BUT if there is nothing further for 12 years from the date of registration with AP you can apply on Form UT1 to upgrade the title to Absolute.
Again do remember that just because you don’t have a registered title it does not follow that you have NO title. In the case of my Client they still have title to the land in question due to the LPA1925. What they do not have is a ‘good and marketable’ title to that land and can not register it until it has been fenced off for 12 years. Again given it is land alongside their other property they could sell all right title and interest as they have to a third party and back that up with an indemnity policy. What they will find very hard though is finding a buyer for the 3 bed house that they have planning for on that site...
Rude-boy said:
Sadly for her she can't.
In addition to that she has now, by raising the question of title with the Council, prevented herself from being able to swear that she has disclaimed the title of all others.
She hasn't raised the question as such, the council's ground maintenance people volunteered that no one seemed to own the land. The chances of the council being joined up enough to have noticed this are pretty slim.In addition to that she has now, by raising the question of title with the Council, prevented herself from being able to swear that she has disclaimed the title of all others.
Fair enough. As said I am just sprouting on about AP in general and not advising anyone on this so your friend should really go and see a solicitor and get things sorted.
Hardest one is likely to be in relation to the fencing if she has left it unfenced as it is, apparently, quite hard to make a new fence look 12+ years old and if the site is visible using Google Earth or similar and no fencing is in place in 2006 (say) it brings questions up...
Hardest one is likely to be in relation to the fencing if she has left it unfenced as it is, apparently, quite hard to make a new fence look 12+ years old and if the site is visible using Google Earth or similar and no fencing is in place in 2006 (say) it brings questions up...
Rude-boy said:
The LR are playing by their own rules (land Registration Rules) these days and are ignoring the letter of the Law of Property Act 1925 when it comes to registration.
This is ill-informed drivel of the first order. Registration has never been governed by the Law of Property Act 1925, but by the statues in relation to registration: originally the Land Registration Act 1925, and now the Land Registration Act 2002. The Land Registration Rules 2003, far from being HMLR's "own rules", were made by the Lord Chancellor under the rule-making power conferred by the Land Registration Act 2002 and various other enactments.The idea that HMLR is "ignoring" the law when it comes to registration, because it is applying the provisions of the 2002 Act and the 2003 Rules, is simply wrong.
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