Audi Dealers lied about NCAP safety testing
Discussion
The headline isn't supported by the story in the news article, which appears to blame the dealers rather than AUDI themselves.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27392157
So what is the likelihood that anyone will be prosecuted?
Could it be argued that the customer should visit the NCAP website and check out the ratings which are more involved than a simple star rating, with ratings being given for different areas of safety importance?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27392157
BBC Business News said:
A BBC Watchdog investigation into Audi has discovered widespread lying about the safety testing of their vehicles.
Undercover researchers witnessed nine out of 10 dealers from around the country falsely claim the Audi A5 was Euro NCAP safety tested.
But the A5 - as well as the A7, A8 and R8 - are not tested. Audi's UK head office falsely claimed that the entire Audi range was Euro NCAP safety tested.
Audi UK said there had not been any deliberate intent to mislead.
Six of the dealers claimed the Audi A5 had achieved the maximum five stars.
Continue reading the main story
Find out more
A crash test dummy
Catch up with the story on Watchdog at 20:00 on Wednesday 14 May or catch it later on the BBC iPlayer.
Watchdog
The Euro NCAP (New Car Assessment Programme) safety tests are funded by various European governments and motoring bodies. Their ratings are frequently cited by manufacturers as a gold standard of safety.
Popular models are either selected for testing by the organisation themselves, or car manufacturers can pay to get their models tested.
But there is no legal requirement for cars to be Euro NCAP tested.
Accident
The issue was brought to the BBC's attention by Daniel Jenkins, owner of a high-end car rental business.
He bought an R8 supercar in December 2012 after a local Audi dealer advised him it had a five-star Euro NCAP safety rating.
A few months later Mr Jenkins's father, Paul, was involved in an accident while driving it.
Despite the R8's safety performance not being responsible for the accident, Mr Jenkins decided to research the official safety credentials of the car, so he contacted multiple dealerships.
He told Watchdog: "Forty-eight of the 50 dealers I spoke to told me directly that it had been put through the Euro NCAP programme and it had a five-star rating."
Mr Jenkins then contacted Audi head office about the dealers' lies. In December 2013 Audi responded, telling him they were taking his allegations seriously - five months before the Watchdog investigation.
When told about Watchdog's findings, Tim Shallcross, a spokesman from the Institute of Advanced Motorists said: "I find it incredible… that a company of the reputation of Audi, and their parent group, the Volkswagen Group can allow their product to be misrepresented so badly in that way.
A hire car rented by the Watchdog team
Six of the dealers claimed the Audi A5 (pictured) achieved five stars on the Euro NCAP test
"Nobody's saying the cars aren't safe, but if they haven't been tested... to say that they have, that's outrageous."
'No intent to mislead'
NCAP spokesman Aled Williams said: "Most of the car companies that we deal with have large marketing departments. These marketing departments understand full well what the safety ratings mean, and it's disappointing to find out that that information is not being filtered down to the point where it matters most… where people are selling cars to consumers.
An Audi spokesman said: "Audi UK wishes to emphasise that there has not been any deliberate intent to mislead on the part of its customer-facing staff where the Euro NCAP safety test performance of the Audi model range is concerned."
"Audi vehicles are engineered to exceed international motor vehicle safety standards. The company fully supports Euro NCAP's efforts to improve vehicle safety.
"We are now aware that our sales and customer service staff must be more conversant with the Euro NCAP safety test register and specifically the Audi models included on it.
"We have already begun a comprehensive and far-reaching review of all of our communications and training procedures to ensure accuracy of information on test data provided to our customers."
Presumably those dealers who misrepresented the product have committed an offence?Undercover researchers witnessed nine out of 10 dealers from around the country falsely claim the Audi A5 was Euro NCAP safety tested.
But the A5 - as well as the A7, A8 and R8 - are not tested. Audi's UK head office falsely claimed that the entire Audi range was Euro NCAP safety tested.
Audi UK said there had not been any deliberate intent to mislead.
Six of the dealers claimed the Audi A5 had achieved the maximum five stars.
Continue reading the main story
Find out more
A crash test dummy
Catch up with the story on Watchdog at 20:00 on Wednesday 14 May or catch it later on the BBC iPlayer.
Watchdog
The Euro NCAP (New Car Assessment Programme) safety tests are funded by various European governments and motoring bodies. Their ratings are frequently cited by manufacturers as a gold standard of safety.
Popular models are either selected for testing by the organisation themselves, or car manufacturers can pay to get their models tested.
But there is no legal requirement for cars to be Euro NCAP tested.
Accident
The issue was brought to the BBC's attention by Daniel Jenkins, owner of a high-end car rental business.
He bought an R8 supercar in December 2012 after a local Audi dealer advised him it had a five-star Euro NCAP safety rating.
A few months later Mr Jenkins's father, Paul, was involved in an accident while driving it.
Despite the R8's safety performance not being responsible for the accident, Mr Jenkins decided to research the official safety credentials of the car, so he contacted multiple dealerships.
He told Watchdog: "Forty-eight of the 50 dealers I spoke to told me directly that it had been put through the Euro NCAP programme and it had a five-star rating."
Mr Jenkins then contacted Audi head office about the dealers' lies. In December 2013 Audi responded, telling him they were taking his allegations seriously - five months before the Watchdog investigation.
When told about Watchdog's findings, Tim Shallcross, a spokesman from the Institute of Advanced Motorists said: "I find it incredible… that a company of the reputation of Audi, and their parent group, the Volkswagen Group can allow their product to be misrepresented so badly in that way.
A hire car rented by the Watchdog team
Six of the dealers claimed the Audi A5 (pictured) achieved five stars on the Euro NCAP test
"Nobody's saying the cars aren't safe, but if they haven't been tested... to say that they have, that's outrageous."
'No intent to mislead'
NCAP spokesman Aled Williams said: "Most of the car companies that we deal with have large marketing departments. These marketing departments understand full well what the safety ratings mean, and it's disappointing to find out that that information is not being filtered down to the point where it matters most… where people are selling cars to consumers.
An Audi spokesman said: "Audi UK wishes to emphasise that there has not been any deliberate intent to mislead on the part of its customer-facing staff where the Euro NCAP safety test performance of the Audi model range is concerned."
"Audi vehicles are engineered to exceed international motor vehicle safety standards. The company fully supports Euro NCAP's efforts to improve vehicle safety.
"We are now aware that our sales and customer service staff must be more conversant with the Euro NCAP safety test register and specifically the Audi models included on it.
"We have already begun a comprehensive and far-reaching review of all of our communications and training procedures to ensure accuracy of information on test data provided to our customers."
So what is the likelihood that anyone will be prosecuted?
Could it be argued that the customer should visit the NCAP website and check out the ratings which are more involved than a simple star rating, with ratings being given for different areas of safety importance?
Just in case you have an Audi and haven't followed the link:
BBC said:
Which Audi models have been tested?
Since 2009, six of the 12 models in the Audi range have been tested by Euro NCAP
The A1, A3, A4, A6, Q3 and Q5 have achieved an overall five-star rating
The A3 received four Euro NCAP advanced awards for its active safety systems
The Q7 and TT were tested before 2009 and received four-star adult safety ratings
The A5, A7, A8 and R8 have not been tested
"Euro NCAP is not a regulatory body, we have no legislative powers.
"All we can do is speak to Audi at a high level and try to encourage them to make sure that the dealers are better informed and better trained."
Since 2009, six of the 12 models in the Audi range have been tested by Euro NCAP
The A1, A3, A4, A6, Q3 and Q5 have achieved an overall five-star rating
The A3 received four Euro NCAP advanced awards for its active safety systems
The Q7 and TT were tested before 2009 and received four-star adult safety ratings
The A5, A7, A8 and R8 have not been tested
"Euro NCAP is not a regulatory body, we have no legislative powers.
"All we can do is speak to Audi at a high level and try to encourage them to make sure that the dealers are better informed and better trained."
If it was used in advertising then the ASA will have some, limited, powers, but this does not seem to be the case. There is, I think, a trading standards issue here, but again Audi won't be particularly concerned about that.
The negative publicity might have an effect though. It's on the BBC so might well get a wide viewing.
The negative publicity might have an effect though. It's on the BBC so might well get a wide viewing.
http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I started a thread already, though my thread title may not have all of the LEDs working in the DRLs.
I agree with the point made by Derek. Watchdog covered the BMW OBD port keyfob reprogramming vulnerability but Thatcham didn't lower their security ratings for the cars so easily pinched via that method.
Nick Fry of BAR/Honda did Watchdog in the early 90s when he worked for Ford, I think about some issue with Airbags/SRS. He stated in a magazine article got some media coaching before going on the programme.
I started a thread already, though my thread title may not have all of the LEDs working in the DRLs.
I agree with the point made by Derek. Watchdog covered the BMW OBD port keyfob reprogramming vulnerability but Thatcham didn't lower their security ratings for the cars so easily pinched via that method.
Nick Fry of BAR/Honda did Watchdog in the early 90s when he worked for Ford, I think about some issue with Airbags/SRS. He stated in a magazine article got some media coaching before going on the programme.
If EuroNCAP rating is so important to these people, why on earth did they not visit EuroNCAP's own website?
http://www.euroncap.com/results/audi.aspx
http://www.euroncap.com/results/audi.aspx
Snowboy said:
I wonder why they haven't been tested?
Have Audi decided it's a waste of money and time trying to get approval from a non legally backed regulatory body?
AFAIK the cars are still safe.
They pass all the local laws on safety around Europe.
Audi won't have had anything to do with it, apart from lying about the results. Euro NCAP is self funding, as it it selects the cars it wants to test, and tests them. They generally don't bother with the more expensive cars, partly because of the cost and partly because of the low volume means less interest in the result, I suspect.Have Audi decided it's a waste of money and time trying to get approval from a non legally backed regulatory body?
AFAIK the cars are still safe.
They pass all the local laws on safety around Europe.
I suspect that Audi will only submit mainstream cars they expect to get top ratings. With the cars they submit Audi would still be a good customer for EuroNCAP which would explain the weak words from their spokesperson.
Widespread lying by any organisation isn't acceptable when dealing with consumers however in the grand scheme of things I can't see much being done beyond retraining by Audi.
Widespread lying by any organisation isn't acceptable when dealing with consumers however in the grand scheme of things I can't see much being done beyond retraining by Audi.
Mill Wheel said:
If nothing else it should prompt potential buyers to do their own research instead of listening to the sales person's hype! 
You would hope so.I work with a guy who used to be a car salesman for a main dealer locally (not Audi) and he described the job as 'lying for a living'
He would lie to prospective purchasers about safety, reliability, MPG, top speed, delivery time of a new car, pretty much everything really to try get a sale. Just tell the customer whatever they wanted to hear.
He said it was just how all the salesmen were.
He absolutely hated it and left after 2 years.
NinjaPower said:
You would hope so.
I work with a guy who used to be a car salesman for a main dealer locally (not Audi) and he described the job as 'lying for a living'
He would lie to prospective purchasers about safety, reliability, MPG, top speed, delivery time of a new car, pretty much everything really to try get a sale. Just tell the customer whatever they wanted to hear.
He said it was just how all the salesmen were.
He absolutely hated it and left after 2 years.
O/T I know but I feel I should share:I work with a guy who used to be a car salesman for a main dealer locally (not Audi) and he described the job as 'lying for a living'
He would lie to prospective purchasers about safety, reliability, MPG, top speed, delivery time of a new car, pretty much everything really to try get a sale. Just tell the customer whatever they wanted to hear.
He said it was just how all the salesmen were.
He absolutely hated it and left after 2 years.
I bought a second-had car from a well-established quality car dealer after examining it closely. Everything fine. After owning it for a couple of weeks I noticed the front offside wheels was damaged, not badly, but enough to mean that I would have to get it repaired some time. Yet I had not hit any kerbs and thought that I must have hit something in the road, a pothole. Close examination of another wheel revealed some corrosion. I knew I hadn't missed that.
The a friend pointed out that I had different makes of tyres on the rear with different tread levels. This in a car with 285 bhp.
The company had changed the wheels and put them on another car they had.
I returned to the company to discuss the matter but they had sold up in the ensuing three months and the new owners told me to p
s off.Sorry to be off-topic but I wanted to warn others to check everything and don't expect them to not to steal from your car.
Just thought I
Snowboy said:
I wonder why they haven't been tested?
Have Audi decided it's a waste of money and time trying to get approval from a non legally backed regulatory body?
AFAIK the cars are still safe.
They pass all the local laws on safety around Europe.
I'd assume the A5 and A7 are sufficiently similar to the A4 and A6 that the assumption is they would score similarly. People don't buy R8s for safety, and I suspect you could crash a tank into an A8 and come off worse Have Audi decided it's a waste of money and time trying to get approval from a non legally backed regulatory body?
AFAIK the cars are still safe.
They pass all the local laws on safety around Europe.
miniman said:
I'd assume the A5 and A7 are sufficiently similar to the A4 and A6 that the assumption is they would score similarly. People don't buy R8s for safety, and I suspect you could crash a tank into an A8 and come off worse
It's not about the safety of the car- it's about lies told on the subject.Rovinghawk said:
miniman said:
I'd assume the A5 and A7 are sufficiently similar to the A4 and A6 that the assumption is they would score similarly. People don't buy R8s for safety, and I suspect you could crash a tank into an A8 and come off worse
It's not about the safety of the car- it's about lies told on the subject.lol
Snowboy said:
Euro NCAP is self funding, as it it selects the cars it wants to test, and tests them. They generally don't bother with the more expensive cars, partly because of the cost and partly because of the low volume means less interest in the result, I suspect.
yep and they buy the cars themselves from dealers so the cars can not be prep'd for the test, its normally the most commonly sold model Snowboy said:
I didn't even realise it was optional to get them tested.
its not optional, NCAP is independent they decided what and when to test car, they can not test everything so they go for the most commonly sold carsall cars have to pass a set of crash tests before they are giving the OK to be made, but these tests are not rated they either pass the crash test or fail it
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Wednesday 14th May 09:52
Derek Smith said:
If it was used in advertising then the ASA will have some, limited, powers, but this does not seem to be the case. There is, I think, a trading standards issue here, but again Audi won't be particularly concerned about that.
The negative publicity might have an effect though. It's on the BBC so might well get a wide viewing.
I'm not so sure it will be that negative. As seen above the BBC is now telling everyone how safe and well built all the Audis that have been NCAP tested are, and drawing the publics attention to that. The negative publicity might have an effect though. It's on the BBC so might well get a wide viewing.
Only a moron would think Audi wouldn't apply the same standards across their designs and most people, I would bet, don't normally care a hoot about enquiring on what safety tests their new car has undergone, in any case. Especially when buying a premium brand.
This could well inform many that Audis are, indeed, very well built, even if their salesmen are sometimes liars. (That can hardly be a surprise, can it?)
TooMany2cvs said:
If EuroNCAP rating is so important to these people, why on earth did they not visit EuroNCAP's own website?
http://www.euroncap.com/results/audi.aspx
Probably because they'd asked the dealer and been told that it had a 5 star rating. I think it reasonable for a buyer to expect that an Audi dealer would be able to accurately supply such information about the cars they sell. http://www.euroncap.com/results/audi.aspx
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff