home trader masquerading as a private seller
Discussion
A bloke near where i live always has dozens of cars parked on his grass verge (not his drive) and on the nearby street for sale, with hand written adverts in the window. He goes to work everyday in a signwritten company van, which is definitely nothing to do with selling cars.
I did a quick search on here but couldn't find the answer but what's the deal with selling lots of cars from home?
I seem to remember someone saying you could only sell half a dozen or so a year before you were classed as a trader and that you can't sell from home without a 'change of use' permission for your property.
Is it a matter for the council or trading standards, or should I just bu@@er off and keep my nose out of his business and let people take their chances buying the old £500 wrecks off his grass verge that they seem to buy?
I did a quick search on here but couldn't find the answer but what's the deal with selling lots of cars from home?
I seem to remember someone saying you could only sell half a dozen or so a year before you were classed as a trader and that you can't sell from home without a 'change of use' permission for your property.
Is it a matter for the council or trading standards, or should I just bu@@er off and keep my nose out of his business and let people take their chances buying the old £500 wrecks off his grass verge that they seem to buy?
muzza289 said:
should I just bu@@er off and keep my nose out of his business and let people take their chances buying the old £500 wrecks off his grass verge that they seem to buy?
This.So long as there aren't a dozen cars parked outside your house with for sale signs on what is the issue?
firemunki said:
At the risk of being an a$$hat, what if you bought off him?
We hear lots about buying from dodgy sellers and how they got away with it for ages, well this is why - no one wants to report them.
If he is pretending to be a private seller then you have nothing to come back on anyway. We hear lots about buying from dodgy sellers and how they got away with it for ages, well this is why - no one wants to report them.
Other than cluttering up the street, i dont see the problem here.
firemunki said:
At the risk of being an a$$hat, what if you bought off him?
We hear lots about buying from dodgy sellers and how they got away with it for ages, well this is why - no one wants to report them.
Who is to say he hasn't got a very long string of happy repeat customers?We hear lots about buying from dodgy sellers and how they got away with it for ages, well this is why - no one wants to report them.
Being "dodgy" or otherwise isn't just about having a smart forecourt is it?
There's a bloke near me who is an AA patrol, usually seems to have a couple of cars for sale with discreet cards in the windows - I bet he's got a lot of happy customers since they all know where he lives and who he works for.
I'd probably be more comfortable buying from him than a couple of the local "established" crooks, er I mean "reputable dealers".
The six sales a year things is urban mythery. You either sell in the course of trade or you don't. A trader is a trader from the moment he tries to sell his first car in the course of trade, just as any other business is a business from start up. If someone is buying and selling cars with a view to profit, that makes him or her a trader. Having said that, if it causes no probs to the community, who cares what the dude does?
I've got at least one near me. Quite obvious. Often there's at least two cars/vans on his front, with another one or two outside, and his Jag close by. The vehicles get worked on in his front garden ,where council conditions of tenancy state only one CAR (no commercials ) are allowed. Then a few days later,I notice one of has gone from the garden and it appears on "car sales alley", a road leading to town where,there's a few other cars for sale with different, but identical for sale notices in the windows, where I'd suspect a lot of innocents might think the sellers were private owners. And that's the rub. A trader trying to pose as a private seller. Do these folk have a trader's licence. And what happens if someone buys a dud. However, I'd suggest that this lot might be in bother when the change in VED conditions comes in .
Breadvan72 said:
The six sales a year things is urban mythery. You either sell in the course of trade or you don't. A trader is a trader from the moment he tries to sell his first car in the course of trade, just as any other business is a business from start up. If someone is buying and selling cars with a view to profit, that makes him or her a trader. Having said that, if it causes no probs to the community, who cares what the dude does?
Its an interesting and very grey area....
'In the course of a trade' and ' with a view to a profit' are difficult to prove.......especially when there is an element of car interest or hobby in the mix. Planning law and Tax law is littered with is it a trade or hobby scenarios and confusion. Many people now have multi car policies so there is less need for an expensive traders policy......and if the cars are registered in the 'traders' name at their home address and used for a couple of weeks, even rflicence obtained, this further dilutes the proof of trader.
Many recent residential developments have 'no business use' deed clauses and a 'trader' has to obtain a Council licence to advertise a vehicle for sale on the public road.......if it causes disturbance or a threat to quiet enjoyment to other residential occupiers in terms of intensification of use by increased people and traffic 'visiting' then action should quite rightly be taken......
CaptainMorgan said:
So because someone is selling from home it automatically means they are not paying tax, pretending to be a private seller and all the other accusations?!
+1 
That's exactly My first thought!
Has the OP actually spoken to the guy to find out if he's claiming to be a private seller or is he just making an assumption?
Could it not be the case that the guy is selling cars legitimately as a declared part time trader for a bit of additional income?
I'd say the fact that he has all of his cars in one place with sale adverts on them is more indicative of someone openly and honestly selling cars as a trader if anything.
The real suspect dealers posing as private sellers tend to have their cars parked in various different streets/locations and tend to use more than one mobile phone number on any adverts in order to remain under the radar.
Breadvan72 said:
The six sales a year things is urban mythery. You either sell in the course of trade or you don't. A trader is a trader from the moment he tries to sell his first car in the course of trade, just as any other business is a business from start up. If someone is buying and selling cars with a view to profit, that makes him or her a trader. Having said that, if it causes no probs to the community, who cares what the dude does?
It causes problems for the genuine trade, who labour under obligations this chap ignores or sidesteps.You assume that this guy does not sell openly as a trader and does not take seriously his responsibilities as a trader, just as some assume that he does not declare his income to HMRC. These assumptions may be correct, but they are assumptions.
As noted above, some mahoosive crooks sell high end cars from pleasant showrooms. Some honest dudes sell old tat cheap and fair from grotty locales. There are a myriad points in between.
As noted above, some mahoosive crooks sell high end cars from pleasant showrooms. Some honest dudes sell old tat cheap and fair from grotty locales. There are a myriad points in between.
V8forweekends said:
firemunki said:
At the risk of being an a$$hat, what if you bought off him?
We hear lots about buying from dodgy sellers and how they got away with it for ages, well this is why - no one wants to report them.
Who is to say he hasn't got a very long string of happy repeat customers?We hear lots about buying from dodgy sellers and how they got away with it for ages, well this is why - no one wants to report them.
Being "dodgy" or otherwise isn't just about having a smart forecourt is it?
There's a bloke near me who is an AA patrol, usually seems to have a couple of cars for sale with discreet cards in the windows - I bet he's got a lot of happy customers since they all know where he lives and who he works for.
I'd probably be more comfortable buying from him than a couple of the local "established" crooks, er I mean "reputable dealers".
Compare that (some 11 years ago now) to the bloke selling his "aunts" escort gti from a car wash in a multi-storey carpark in Runcorn. Lights particularly bad, but looked ever so clean. Went for a test drive and decided to stop and look at in the day light. It had been key'ed all round and very very "professionally" touched up, so that the keying was like a series of faint bruises, that you could see clearly when the sun was shining. Then I looked in the boot and found the alloy wheel with-out a tyre. Then I looked at the full history, and it was clear to me that he had clocked it back to 4 years previously when a previous owner had stopped using the main dealer. There was only the current MOT, and no bills to support the stamps, but nothing in the history for the previous 4 years.
I drove away without making an offer.
What do the terms "trade" and "business" mean? The answer, as usual, depends on facts and context. For present purposes, although we refer to car traders or car dealers, the term business is probably what matters. Is this a person selling in the course of a business? As I mentioned above, the answer does not depend merely on how many cars are sold. Any business is a business even before it makes its first sale. A private seller might sell several cars a year. I have bought and sold several cars this year, but I am not a car dealer. I'm just a nutcase.
IRC v Marine Steam Turbine [1920] KB 193 is an old tax case. The Court took the view that the word “business” in some tax rule or other was used in the sense of “an active occupation or profession continuously carried on”. There are lots old tax cases about this, as you might expect.
Scarth v Amin [2008] EWHC 2886 QB is a case about electoral law and the service of documents (IIRC), but the concept of business came up, for reasons too dull to relate. Mr Justice Tugendhat and Mr Justice Clarke said of “business” at 36-37:-
"We note that the word “business” can have a broad meaning. The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following meanings:
“III 11.a … a person's official duty …; function occupation… 12.a A person's official or professional duties as a whole; stated occupation, profession, or trade…”
37 There are the following definitions given in other legal contexts:
i) “Business” is a wider term than “trade”, and not synonymous with it, and means almost anything which is an occupation as distinguished from a pleasure. However the term must be construed according to its context: 47 Halsbury's Laws: 4th Ed [2001 Edition] para 6. See Rolls v Miller [1884] 27 Ch D 71 (“The word [“business”] means almost anything which is an occupation as distinguished from a pleasure - anything which is an occupation or duty which requires attention is a business” per Lindley LJ).
ii) In the Sale of Goods Act 1979 “business” is defined as including the activities of any government department or local or public authority: section 61 (1). A similar definition appears in section 14 of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 .
iii) Under the Landlord & Tenant Act 1954 section 23 (2) “business” includes a trade, profession or employment, and includes any activity carried on by a body of persons whether corporate or incorporate. Whether an activity which is carried on by an individual tenant is a trade, profession or employment so as to attract the statutory protection is a question of degree to be decided in the light of all the circumstances existing: Halsbury's Laws 4th Ed [Reissue] Vol 27 (1) para 565."
This stuff is on my mind at present, as I am doing an animal rights (ish) case next week in which the concept of "business" is an issue. Electoral law, and now herpetology. Elucidation of everyday legal concepts can occur in the most surprising of contexts. My intern, an animal rights activist of sorts, is learning about the cab rank rule, as we are on the other side.
IRC v Marine Steam Turbine [1920] KB 193 is an old tax case. The Court took the view that the word “business” in some tax rule or other was used in the sense of “an active occupation or profession continuously carried on”. There are lots old tax cases about this, as you might expect.
Scarth v Amin [2008] EWHC 2886 QB is a case about electoral law and the service of documents (IIRC), but the concept of business came up, for reasons too dull to relate. Mr Justice Tugendhat and Mr Justice Clarke said of “business” at 36-37:-
"We note that the word “business” can have a broad meaning. The Oxford English Dictionary gives the following meanings:
“III 11.a … a person's official duty …; function occupation… 12.a A person's official or professional duties as a whole; stated occupation, profession, or trade…”
37 There are the following definitions given in other legal contexts:
i) “Business” is a wider term than “trade”, and not synonymous with it, and means almost anything which is an occupation as distinguished from a pleasure. However the term must be construed according to its context: 47 Halsbury's Laws: 4th Ed [2001 Edition] para 6. See Rolls v Miller [1884] 27 Ch D 71 (“The word [“business”] means almost anything which is an occupation as distinguished from a pleasure - anything which is an occupation or duty which requires attention is a business” per Lindley LJ).
ii) In the Sale of Goods Act 1979 “business” is defined as including the activities of any government department or local or public authority: section 61 (1). A similar definition appears in section 14 of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 .
iii) Under the Landlord & Tenant Act 1954 section 23 (2) “business” includes a trade, profession or employment, and includes any activity carried on by a body of persons whether corporate or incorporate. Whether an activity which is carried on by an individual tenant is a trade, profession or employment so as to attract the statutory protection is a question of degree to be decided in the light of all the circumstances existing: Halsbury's Laws 4th Ed [Reissue] Vol 27 (1) para 565."
This stuff is on my mind at present, as I am doing an animal rights (ish) case next week in which the concept of "business" is an issue. Electoral law, and now herpetology. Elucidation of everyday legal concepts can occur in the most surprising of contexts. My intern, an animal rights activist of sorts, is learning about the cab rank rule, as we are on the other side.
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