employment law/advice needed please.
Discussion
Hi all,
I've used SP&L before and was lucky enough to receive some great advice from JustinP1 and others,and so I'm back for a second bite of the cherry.
I'll give some very brief background to the issue and elaborate as advice/questions arise.
Mrs CTO currently works for a company where she has been unhappy for a while. Lack of support in her current role and poor management practice has been a concern for her for a long time and over recent months she has had the distinct feeling that she is being targeted to force her out. Endless inspections of her work place/repeat audits before solutions have had a chance to take place and generally not receiving replies to telephone calls/emails, low level subtle but effective stuff really.
Two weeks ago she finally went off sick with stress. To be fair I'm not surprised,recent years have been very difficult for her.
She spoke to the chief exec this week who invited her in to discuss an upcoming ombudsman inspection, this is while she is signed off but she decided to go in and discuss it in the interests of the business.
Shortly after attending this morning the CE informed her that she was being suspended while investigation into concerns they have found are investigated.
Mrs CTO was shocked by this, and more so when the CE said that in their opinion she no longer trusts the organisation, they feel communication has broken down between them and that it's the end of the road in their view.
Following this Mrs CTO was offered a sum of money (equivalent to a month's salary tax free) to walk away from the organisation with her employment record clear, the CE said that the sum offered was "without prejudice" and if she chose to decline the offer and fight it out with them then they would deny any such offer was made.......
To my untrained eye the whole thing stinks.......
Mrs CTO attended the meeting under a different context and while signed off with work related stress and in my view if someone is thought to be potentially responsible for gross misconduct you don't then offer them cash to bugger off instead of circumvent the process?!?!?
She has until next week to indicate her intentions. My view is go either drag them through the process and further if needs be, certainly not to accept their first derisory offer to quietly dissapear.
Mrs CTO thinks that in spite of the wealth of email traffic from her to them in the last year or so outlining her concerns she should take the cash, walk away and find another job as she didn't enjoy it there anyway and she would have a clean disciplinary record.......
As I said before I think this stinks, any advice on how to proceed, how to play things?
TIA,
Best wishes,
CTO
I've used SP&L before and was lucky enough to receive some great advice from JustinP1 and others,and so I'm back for a second bite of the cherry.
I'll give some very brief background to the issue and elaborate as advice/questions arise.
Mrs CTO currently works for a company where she has been unhappy for a while. Lack of support in her current role and poor management practice has been a concern for her for a long time and over recent months she has had the distinct feeling that she is being targeted to force her out. Endless inspections of her work place/repeat audits before solutions have had a chance to take place and generally not receiving replies to telephone calls/emails, low level subtle but effective stuff really.
Two weeks ago she finally went off sick with stress. To be fair I'm not surprised,recent years have been very difficult for her.
She spoke to the chief exec this week who invited her in to discuss an upcoming ombudsman inspection, this is while she is signed off but she decided to go in and discuss it in the interests of the business.
Shortly after attending this morning the CE informed her that she was being suspended while investigation into concerns they have found are investigated.
Mrs CTO was shocked by this, and more so when the CE said that in their opinion she no longer trusts the organisation, they feel communication has broken down between them and that it's the end of the road in their view.
Following this Mrs CTO was offered a sum of money (equivalent to a month's salary tax free) to walk away from the organisation with her employment record clear, the CE said that the sum offered was "without prejudice" and if she chose to decline the offer and fight it out with them then they would deny any such offer was made.......
To my untrained eye the whole thing stinks.......
Mrs CTO attended the meeting under a different context and while signed off with work related stress and in my view if someone is thought to be potentially responsible for gross misconduct you don't then offer them cash to bugger off instead of circumvent the process?!?!?
She has until next week to indicate her intentions. My view is go either drag them through the process and further if needs be, certainly not to accept their first derisory offer to quietly dissapear.
Mrs CTO thinks that in spite of the wealth of email traffic from her to them in the last year or so outlining her concerns she should take the cash, walk away and find another job as she didn't enjoy it there anyway and she would have a clean disciplinary record.......
As I said before I think this stinks, any advice on how to proceed, how to play things?
TIA,
Best wishes,
CTO
Not legal advice but some well meant thoughts.
If an employer wants to get rid of you they will. You can spend several months after arguing the toss and the legalities and ending up in a stressful employment tribunal. You will probably win but at what cost (not financial)?
She is unhappy there so leaving may not be the end of the world. It may be better to try to negotiate a better severance, say six months salary, rather than fight for a job she doesn't really want anyway.....
If an employer wants to get rid of you they will. You can spend several months after arguing the toss and the legalities and ending up in a stressful employment tribunal. You will probably win but at what cost (not financial)?
She is unhappy there so leaving may not be the end of the world. It may be better to try to negotiate a better severance, say six months salary, rather than fight for a job she doesn't really want anyway.....
How long has she worked there?
If she's signed off with stress, has she been referred to Occupation Health?
You intimate that subtle moves are taking place to oust her from her role. Does the company have a case for a disciplinary against her?
Don't forget - poor performance does not equate to a disciplinary. It equates to a performance review.
I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
Seems on the surface like they're trying to get her to take a little money and leave.
As pointed out, if they want her out then they will succeed, but you should certainly negotiate.
If she's signed off with stress, has she been referred to Occupation Health?
You intimate that subtle moves are taking place to oust her from her role. Does the company have a case for a disciplinary against her?
Don't forget - poor performance does not equate to a disciplinary. It equates to a performance review.
I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
Seems on the surface like they're trying to get her to take a little money and leave.
As pointed out, if they want her out then they will succeed, but you should certainly negotiate.
PurpleMoonlight said:
Not legal advice but some well meant thoughts.
If an employer wants to get rid of you they will. You can spend several months after arguing the toss and the legalities and ending up in a stressful employment tribunal. You will probably win but at what cost (not financial)?
She is unhappy there so leaving may not be the end of the world. It may be better to try to negotiate a better severance, say six months salary, rather than fight for a job she doesn't really want anyway.....
Thanks PM, If an employer wants to get rid of you they will. You can spend several months after arguing the toss and the legalities and ending up in a stressful employment tribunal. You will probably win but at what cost (not financial)?
She is unhappy there so leaving may not be the end of the world. It may be better to try to negotiate a better severance, say six months salary, rather than fight for a job she doesn't really want anyway.....
I agree that there isn't much to actually win from the situation in that even should she successfully argue the investigation, her position there would be untenable. As you rightfully say, if they want to get rid of you they will.
I'm just confused by the "we think you're in the wrong" but here is some cash to avoid us trying to prove it?
I also think that negotiation of a better severance deal could be the way forward but it's a delicate thing I guess as they could withdraw the offer altogether, although Mrs CTO is aware of other instances where they have made significantly larger offers to people to "go away" rather than argue their potential failings as a business with them.
Thanks for the well meaning thoughts,
BW,
CTO
Muzzer79 said:
<snip>
I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
.
she's been suspended , in a number of sectors leaving while suspended be viewed as the equivalent to being found guilty on a gross misconduct charge and in some cases worse as the 'the allegation is unresolved' ...I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
.
Muzzer79 said:
How long has she worked there?
If she's signed off with stress, has she been referred to Occupation Health?
You intimate that subtle moves are taking place to oust her from her role. Does the company have a case for a disciplinary against her?
Don't forget - poor performance does not equate to a disciplinary. It equates to a performance review.
I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
Seems on the surface like they're trying to get her to take a little money and leave.
As pointed out, if they want her out then they will succeed, but you should certainly negotiate.
She has worked there for 5 years.If she's signed off with stress, has she been referred to Occupation Health?
You intimate that subtle moves are taking place to oust her from her role. Does the company have a case for a disciplinary against her?
Don't forget - poor performance does not equate to a disciplinary. It equates to a performance review.
I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
Seems on the surface like they're trying to get her to take a little money and leave.
As pointed out, if they want her out then they will succeed, but you should certainly negotiate.
I wouldn't know if they have a case for a disciplinary as I haven't been there and not privy to the information. I very much doubt it but I'm clearly biased.
They are stating gross misconduct potentially on I think five counts, but no information in depth as to what these may be.
No referral to Occy Health as she has been suspended whilst signed off with work related stress so this process hasn't been followed.
Negotiation may be the way forward, she is very unhappy with the organisation anyhow.
Cheers,
CTO
CTO said:
My view is go either drag them through the process and further if needs be, certainly not to accept their first derisory offer to quietly dissapear.
Mrs CTO thinks that in spite of the wealth of email traffic from her to them in the last year or so outlining her concerns she should take the cash, walk away and find another job as she didn't enjoy it there anyway and she would have a clean disciplinary record.......
Had the same thing a few years back with my wife, in truth I think her face just didn't 'fit' (only woman in an office full of sales guys).Mrs CTO thinks that in spite of the wealth of email traffic from her to them in the last year or so outlining her concerns she should take the cash, walk away and find another job as she didn't enjoy it there anyway and she would have a clean disciplinary record.......
She ended up off work due to stress and was made a similar derisory offer. The offer showed to me that they were looking for an easy way to get her out and our thoughts on the offer mirrored yours and your wife's. I said she should fight, she just wanted to take the money and run - she didn't have it left in her to battle it out.
In the end we compromised and she went back and asked for a year's pay in severance, got agreement for 6 months (in writing) and a good reference (in writing) and left the following day.
She's never looked back.
It's a horrible time, don't put extra pressure on her to fight this when she's already been worn down by her employer. Just support her in whatever she feels most comfortable doing.
CTO said:
Two weeks ago she finally went off sick with stress. To be fair I'm not surprised,recent years have been very difficult for her.
She spoke to the chief exec this week who invited her in to discuss an upcoming ombudsman inspection, this is while she is signed off but she decided to go in and discuss it in the interests of the business.
Oh dear. She has been done up like a kipper.She spoke to the chief exec this week who invited her in to discuss an upcoming ombudsman inspection, this is while she is signed off but she decided to go in and discuss it in the interests of the business.
CTO said:
Shortly after attending this morning the CE informed her that she was being suspended while investigation into concerns they have found are investigated.
The ombudsman inspection was a ruse de guerre. If the GP's fit note says 'not fit for work' she should never have gone near the place.As for the tax free bit she needs to look at this (and the embedded links) - http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/eim12975.h...
The last thing she needs is HMRC coming after her for a grossed-up tax payment.
She has to decide whether a bird in the hand (one month's pay is the minimum they must offer - unless her T&Cs stipulate a longer notice period) is better than trying to negotiate a better package (which from their overt threat looks very unlikely).
My suspicion is that they want her out before the inspection in case she reveals anything which will seriously compromise the organisation's score.
Is this a private or public sector employer? It sounds similar to this saga - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Would it be worth getting copies of said email correspondence so if the proverbial does go south Mrs CTO has evidence, I would imagine if they are trying to get rid of her they may want to get rid of the evidence too!
Also it may be worth speaking to ACAS and getting some advice from them
Also it may be worth speaking to ACAS and getting some advice from them
Mark Benson said:
Had the same thing a few years back with my wife, in truth I think her face just didn't 'fit' (only woman in an office full of sales guys).
She ended up off work due to stress and was made a similar derisory offer. The offer showed to me that they were looking for an easy way to get her out and our thoughts on the offer mirrored yours and your wife's. I said she should fight, she just wanted to take the money and run - she didn't have it left in her to battle it out.
In the end we compromised and she went back and asked for a year's pay in severance, got agreement for 6 months (in writing) and a good reference (in writing) and left the following day.
She's never looked back.
It's a horrible time, don't put extra pressure on her to fight this when she's already been worn down by her employer. Just support her in whatever she feels most comfortable doing.
Echoes exactly where we are at at the moment.She ended up off work due to stress and was made a similar derisory offer. The offer showed to me that they were looking for an easy way to get her out and our thoughts on the offer mirrored yours and your wife's. I said she should fight, she just wanted to take the money and run - she didn't have it left in her to battle it out.
In the end we compromised and she went back and asked for a year's pay in severance, got agreement for 6 months (in writing) and a good reference (in writing) and left the following day.
She's never looked back.
It's a horrible time, don't put extra pressure on her to fight this when she's already been worn down by her employer. Just support her in whatever she feels most comfortable doing.
Useful to know and hopeful for the future,
Thanks
CTO
dhalv said:
Would it be worth getting copies of said email correspondence so if the proverbial does go south Mrs CTO has evidence, I would imagine if they are trying to get rid of her they may want to get rid of the evidence too!
Also it may be worth speaking to ACAS and getting some advice from them
I've advised her to back up all work emails in case their server has "issues" retrieving them in future.Also it may be worth speaking to ACAS and getting some advice from them
dhalv said:
Would it be worth getting copies of said email correspondence so if the proverbial does go south Mrs CTO has evidence, I would imagine they are trying to get rid of her they may want to get rid of the evidence too!
Might be a tad difficult if they were sent/received at her workplace unless she has already taken the precaution of making hard copies. How is she going to access them while them while off sick? If they are on her laptop or a work one which she is allowed to take home (and has done so) then it's well worth doing as backup. Takes two to tango... CTO said:
Muzzer79 said:
How long has she worked there?
If she's signed off with stress, has she been referred to Occupation Health?
You intimate that subtle moves are taking place to oust her from her role. Does the company have a case for a disciplinary against her?
Don't forget - poor performance does not equate to a disciplinary. It equates to a performance review.
I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
Seems on the surface like they're trying to get her to take a little money and leave.
As pointed out, if they want her out then they will succeed, but you should certainly negotiate.
She has worked there for 5 years.If she's signed off with stress, has she been referred to Occupation Health?
You intimate that subtle moves are taking place to oust her from her role. Does the company have a case for a disciplinary against her?
Don't forget - poor performance does not equate to a disciplinary. It equates to a performance review.
I can't see how they can offer a sweetener of a clean disciplinary record if she's done nothing to warrant a non-clean one.
Seems on the surface like they're trying to get her to take a little money and leave.
As pointed out, if they want her out then they will succeed, but you should certainly negotiate.
I wouldn't know if they have a case for a disciplinary as I haven't been there and not privy to the information. I very much doubt it but I'm clearly biased.
They are stating gross misconduct potentially on I think five counts, but no information in depth as to what these may be.
No referral to Occy Health as she has been suspended whilst signed off with work related stress so this process hasn't been followed.
Negotiation may be the way forward, she is very unhappy with the organisation anyhow.
Cheers,
CTO
I don't know what sector she's in, but round here gross-misconduct means some fairly only-if-you're-really-stupid activity.
I assume she's been suspended for 2 weeks on full pay. Have they set a date for the investigatory meeting? It's here they'll need to lay out exactly what the accusations are.
For a G.M charge, I'm surprised she hasn't requested or supplied with details on exactly what she's suspended on suspicion of??
Muzzer79 said:
If she has been suspended on 5 counts of gross-misconduct, that's fairly full on.
I don't know what sector she's in, but round here gross-misconduct means some fairly only-if-you're-really-stupid activity.
I assume she's been suspended for 2 weeks on full pay. Have they set a date for the investigatory meeting? It's here they'll need to lay out exactly what the accusations are.
For a G.M charge, I'm surprised she hasn't requested or supplied with details on exactly what she's suspended on suspicion of??
Each count has a one line explanation. I'd be amazed if any of them stick, I imagine it's shock tactics.I don't know what sector she's in, but round here gross-misconduct means some fairly only-if-you're-really-stupid activity.
I assume she's been suspended for 2 weeks on full pay. Have they set a date for the investigatory meeting? It's here they'll need to lay out exactly what the accusations are.
For a G.M charge, I'm surprised she hasn't requested or supplied with details on exactly what she's suspended on suspicion of??
The main thing with waiting for two weeks for the investigation is that the CD has made it clear that the financial offer is withdrawn if she chooses to do that.
I'm slightly suspicious that she has to give an answer by Monday, bearing in mind her next pay date is Friday which would presumably include the last two weeks sick pay, or not....... They seem morally bereft so I could foresee potential issues with them withholding this .....
They don't want her, she doesn't want to go back.
So that's all good and clear. You're now talking about a commercial negotiation to settle that situation. I would lawyer up at this point, because:
- Mrs CTO is in no condition to do her own negotiating
- The employer doesn't give a toss and is just looking to minimise costs
- Appointing an agent says (a) you're serious, (b) makes sure you cover the paperwork properly re references, disclosure, and taxation, and (c) lets you never have to talk to them again
It won't be expensive to get to see if they are bluffing or not. And include your legal costs in your claim...
So that's all good and clear. You're now talking about a commercial negotiation to settle that situation. I would lawyer up at this point, because:
- Mrs CTO is in no condition to do her own negotiating
- The employer doesn't give a toss and is just looking to minimise costs
- Appointing an agent says (a) you're serious, (b) makes sure you cover the paperwork properly re references, disclosure, and taxation, and (c) lets you never have to talk to them again
It won't be expensive to get to see if they are bluffing or not. And include your legal costs in your claim...
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