Boiler Install - Property/Lease issues - Help!
Discussion
Anyone know anything about this?
We've recently had a new boiler go in, as the old one failed. The tank system has been replaced by a Combi-Boiler. The (voluntary) head of our resident association asked to speak to our plumber, regarding making sure that the brickwork and making good was done properly. This was done and he gave us the plumber the go ahead.
Upon his return he has phoned me today and told me that I have to have it all ripped out and re-done as he has judged the flue an eyesore. As the boiler comes out next to our kitchen window, the flue had to have an extender fitted to it, to ensure that it is 30 cm away from an opening window.
We have been told that we now have to change our window and have the boiler relocated, or the Resident's Association will do it and disable out boiler. Apparently we have breached the Lease agreement by having unsanctioned work on the exterior of the building, that is not in keeping with the property. Although the head gave verbal go ahead to our plumber.
The plumber says that he can't move the flue due to regulations.
Having just moved (as in bought the flat), we can't afford it and the Head of the Association has threatened me with Legal Action and ultimate Eviction.
We have had run ins with this guy before, he's complained about our solicitor when we were buying, my TVR, renovation noise amongst other things. he also has a tendency to stare in at our window a lot.
I'm not going to lie, but I did lose my rag with him when I said I couldn't afford the work and he said, essentially, tough, if you can't fix it, we'll sue you for breach of the lease. The resident's association does not own the freehold, but is granted the lease and sub-leases out to owners.
Any advice is gratefully received. Should I start seeking legal advice?
Being a first time buyer, I'm really in experienced around this sort of thing. The guy is making our first home a misery and I want to make sure I know where I stand before I go to bat.
Cheers
We've recently had a new boiler go in, as the old one failed. The tank system has been replaced by a Combi-Boiler. The (voluntary) head of our resident association asked to speak to our plumber, regarding making sure that the brickwork and making good was done properly. This was done and he gave us the plumber the go ahead.
Upon his return he has phoned me today and told me that I have to have it all ripped out and re-done as he has judged the flue an eyesore. As the boiler comes out next to our kitchen window, the flue had to have an extender fitted to it, to ensure that it is 30 cm away from an opening window.
We have been told that we now have to change our window and have the boiler relocated, or the Resident's Association will do it and disable out boiler. Apparently we have breached the Lease agreement by having unsanctioned work on the exterior of the building, that is not in keeping with the property. Although the head gave verbal go ahead to our plumber.
The plumber says that he can't move the flue due to regulations.
Having just moved (as in bought the flat), we can't afford it and the Head of the Association has threatened me with Legal Action and ultimate Eviction.
We have had run ins with this guy before, he's complained about our solicitor when we were buying, my TVR, renovation noise amongst other things. he also has a tendency to stare in at our window a lot.
I'm not going to lie, but I did lose my rag with him when I said I couldn't afford the work and he said, essentially, tough, if you can't fix it, we'll sue you for breach of the lease. The resident's association does not own the freehold, but is granted the lease and sub-leases out to owners.
Any advice is gratefully received. Should I start seeking legal advice?
Being a first time buyer, I'm really in experienced around this sort of thing. The guy is making our first home a misery and I want to make sure I know where I stand before I go to bat.
Cheers
Wildfire said:
The plumber says that he can't move the flue due to regulations.
Well, he CAN - so long as it meets all the regs, including >30cm from any opening window.http://support.ambirad.co.uk/article.aspx?id=10724
If that really is the case, then any boiler being installed is going to have to conform to those same regs, so is going to have the same issue. Moving the interior location of the boiler seems drastic - can the flue be re-routed internally, with the exit coming through the wall at a different point?
You should only speak to your direct landlord with regard to the flue and then only if you require their consent to install/amend the flue under the terms of the lease.
If it is a Resident's Association that is your landlord they should have a constitution and any Committee or representative will have to be appointed according to the rules. Random individuals cannot take powers unless everyone lets them. The verbal agreement to the works was incorrect as it should have been in writing. This prevents any doubt as to what is agreed. Your plumber may have mentioned the flue to him and assumed agreement to the flue.
I assume that you used a solicitor to acquire the lease. Try and seek guidance from them which will incur a cost. Otherwise Citizens Advice, CAB, is the place to go.
Amendment to the window sounds like major work which would require planning so your current contact sounds like someone with no idea.
If it is a Resident's Association that is your landlord they should have a constitution and any Committee or representative will have to be appointed according to the rules. Random individuals cannot take powers unless everyone lets them. The verbal agreement to the works was incorrect as it should have been in writing. This prevents any doubt as to what is agreed. Your plumber may have mentioned the flue to him and assumed agreement to the flue.
I assume that you used a solicitor to acquire the lease. Try and seek guidance from them which will incur a cost. Otherwise Citizens Advice, CAB, is the place to go.
Amendment to the window sounds like major work which would require planning so your current contact sounds like someone with no idea.
It's not that easy for mr big-shot to make you comply with his wishes. It is all governed by leases. It is unlikely there is a specific clause that says you can't install a flue as it is unsightly or whatever. You really need legal advice from a lawyer but IMO I would do nothing, and wait until he eventually sends you some paperwork. The landlord (not him personally) would have to apply to the First-tier Tribunal afaik to state their case that you are in breech of the lease, and they would make a ruling. Worst case scenario is probably they would say you can't do that, you will have to pay to get it moved / whatever. First thing is get a copy of your full lease and read it, and try to understand what you have done wrong (if anything). Tell the old geezer to put future communications to you regarding the matter in writing.
Wildfire said:
We have had run ins with this guy before, he's complained about our solicitor when we were buying, my TVR, renovation noise amongst other things. he also has a tendency to stare in at our window a lot.
I'm not going to lie, but I did lose my rag with him when I said I couldn't afford the work and he said, essentially, tough, if you can't fix it, we'll sue you for breach of the lease. The resident's association does not own the freehold, but is granted the lease and sub-leases out to owners.
Any advice is gratefully received. Should I start seeking legal advice?
Yes. Any threat of breach/eviction should be taken seriously (even if it does eventually turn out to be so much hot air). I'm not going to lie, but I did lose my rag with him when I said I couldn't afford the work and he said, essentially, tough, if you can't fix it, we'll sue you for breach of the lease. The resident's association does not own the freehold, but is granted the lease and sub-leases out to owners.
Any advice is gratefully received. Should I start seeking legal advice?
If the Residents Association chairperson had a beef with your solicitor when you bought the property then give him another dose. Get the same (or another suitably competent) one to have a very close look at the terms of your lease.
Once you have got that out of the way (and are still a resident!) perhaps you could consider canvassing opinion on whether this guy is effective in the role or a total
. If someone else (maybe you?) can be found to stand against him at the AGM then maybe you'll be able to get shot of him. I write as a Director of resident management companies, not with any legal training.
There are a couple of crucial points - the most obviously, is the exact construction of the lease.
The second, does this constitute informed approval:
'We've recently had a new boiler go in, as the old one failed. The tank system has been replaced by a Combi-Boiler. The (voluntary) head of our resident association asked to speak to our plumber, regarding making sure that the brickwork and making good was done properly. This was done and he gave us the plumber the go ahead.'
Make sure you communicate in writing to the responsible (under the lease) body.
It would not be easy for the landlord to forfeit the lease, certainly if you are following it.
There are a couple of crucial points - the most obviously, is the exact construction of the lease.
The second, does this constitute informed approval:
'We've recently had a new boiler go in, as the old one failed. The tank system has been replaced by a Combi-Boiler. The (voluntary) head of our resident association asked to speak to our plumber, regarding making sure that the brickwork and making good was done properly. This was done and he gave us the plumber the go ahead.'
Make sure you communicate in writing to the responsible (under the lease) body.
It would not be easy for the landlord to forfeit the lease, certainly if you are following it.
Several thoughts.
Are you in breach?
Does he have authority to do as he threatens or is this a committee decision?
Apply for consent retrospectively?
Practical solutions.
Legal cover with home contents?
How bad is it? Picture?
No other option...
If you end up with your back against the wall talk to your lender. They will not want to see foreclosure on their security and will likely find a way to help.
Are you in breach?
Does he have authority to do as he threatens or is this a committee decision?
Apply for consent retrospectively?
Practical solutions.
Legal cover with home contents?
How bad is it? Picture?
No other option...
If you end up with your back against the wall talk to your lender. They will not want to see foreclosure on their security and will likely find a way to help.
From what you say sounds like he has stitched you up- deliberately. Can you clarify the ownership structure as I would be surprised if the residents association have granted your lease. More likely that they are a management committee for the maintainance of building structure and common parts via a service charge . Regardless of that I think you are likely to be in breach of your lease as the works done affect the structure and which will require landlords consent and hence the question as to who is the owner and your landlord. Verbal consent not sufficient here IMO. It needs sorting but you can't be evicted for this on the basis that you " own " the lease but you are not immune from having to reinstate if you cannot get retrospective consent for these works.
I have worn the same "T" shirt as the OP, been there carried out the same new boiler installation residential association leasehold flat. Changing regulations on boiler flues etc., together with the design and layout of a block of flats, makes it almost impossible to hide the exits of flues.
My thoughts are that the OP has nothing to worry about, and will possibly hear no more from the residential association, and if the OP does, then those communications must be in writing.
The Leasehold Advisory Service does offer a free telephone legal advice service, with telephone calls be answered by qualified solicitors, tel. no. 01483 216528
My thoughts are that the OP has nothing to worry about, and will possibly hear no more from the residential association, and if the OP does, then those communications must be in writing.
The Leasehold Advisory Service does offer a free telephone legal advice service, with telephone calls be answered by qualified solicitors, tel. no. 01483 216528
Thanks guys. I'll give the Leasehold AS a ring.
The new flue exits exactly where the old one did. I will put up pics tomorrow. His main issue is around the plume kit that is required to extend the flue to the regulation >30cm from an opening window.
Our Heating engineer has said he will not remove the kit as it will be in violation of current regs. The Head of the RA has now demanded that we relocate the boiler to somewhere else (which we can't afford) or have a new window put in (which we also can't afford).
His point is that other flats have had new boilers in without plume extensions on, but both were done by his mate and also do not have opening windows. He said he doesn't care about legislation and that as we have breached the under lease he will send out a solicitor's letter (which we get charged for) and will continue to do so until we have our boiler relocated.
He has threatened to take it down. To do this he will have to access our flat. I don't want to have to go to court over him trying to access the flat and my worry is that he will try to force his way in when I'm not there (either under some bullsh*t premis or when the OH is home) and get the boiler switched off. I work away a fair bit too, which gives me more worries.
The structure of the lease is that the Freeholders leased it to the management company (resident run and we are all shareholders) and the management company sub-leases out to owners.
We did get verbal agreement for the work to go ahead and went to considerable expense to ensure that the brickwork was matched up too.
The clause is wooly in the lease and says we must obtain permission, which we got. It is only in his opinion that it looks unsightly.
The guy has made our lives hell since we moved in. Th OH is actually scared to go out and avoids leaving when he is wandering around. We've decided to keep a diary of his threats and conversations from now on, as it's pretty much intimidation.
After chatting to another resident, it seems that he has had issue with 3 other residents, two who are not white and one who has a Asian partner. Myself being Chinese I am starting to see a pattern.
The new flue exits exactly where the old one did. I will put up pics tomorrow. His main issue is around the plume kit that is required to extend the flue to the regulation >30cm from an opening window.
Our Heating engineer has said he will not remove the kit as it will be in violation of current regs. The Head of the RA has now demanded that we relocate the boiler to somewhere else (which we can't afford) or have a new window put in (which we also can't afford).
His point is that other flats have had new boilers in without plume extensions on, but both were done by his mate and also do not have opening windows. He said he doesn't care about legislation and that as we have breached the under lease he will send out a solicitor's letter (which we get charged for) and will continue to do so until we have our boiler relocated.
He has threatened to take it down. To do this he will have to access our flat. I don't want to have to go to court over him trying to access the flat and my worry is that he will try to force his way in when I'm not there (either under some bullsh*t premis or when the OH is home) and get the boiler switched off. I work away a fair bit too, which gives me more worries.
The structure of the lease is that the Freeholders leased it to the management company (resident run and we are all shareholders) and the management company sub-leases out to owners.
We did get verbal agreement for the work to go ahead and went to considerable expense to ensure that the brickwork was matched up too.
The clause is wooly in the lease and says we must obtain permission, which we got. It is only in his opinion that it looks unsightly.
The guy has made our lives hell since we moved in. Th OH is actually scared to go out and avoids leaving when he is wandering around. We've decided to keep a diary of his threats and conversations from now on, as it's pretty much intimidation.
After chatting to another resident, it seems that he has had issue with 3 other residents, two who are not white and one who has a Asian partner. Myself being Chinese I am starting to see a pattern.
Edited by Wildfire on Wednesday 8th October 23:52
Someone else mentioned it earlier in the thread, but it's excellent advice - get yourself to the next leaseholders meeting. If you can, get the other people to come who have also had issues with him and maybe be prepared to drop the "R" bomb if needs be.
I know exactly the sort of person you're dealing with - I'm a landlord with quite a few leasehold properties - and they can be a right pain in the whatnots. They tend to be bullies though and certainly don't like it when people stand up to them.
Best of luck OP
I know exactly the sort of person you're dealing with - I'm a landlord with quite a few leasehold properties - and they can be a right pain in the whatnots. They tend to be bullies though and certainly don't like it when people stand up to them.
Best of luck OP
dirkgently said:
He is an arse, every block of flats has one.
If you are lucky he will remove the plume kit himself, breaching gas safety regulations thus bringing on a whole new world of pain for himself.
not every block has them (ours doesn't) but my best friend has one that does.If you are lucky he will remove the plume kit himself, breaching gas safety regulations thus bringing on a whole new world of pain for himself.
Can make your life difficult but the tenant (owner) is in a strong position.
As noted above, check if you home insurance includes legal expenses cover. If it does, call on it now. You should try and get your letter in first if you can. Good luck. I had a bloke like this when we lived in Bayswater years ago. I moved in the end - selling that flat probably goes down as my all time worst financial decision!
You say that you are a shareholder of the management company, are you also a director of the management company?
One can search via this web site, https://www.duedil.com/ the registered address, named directors of the management company, the same will accord you the opportunity of raising the matter with a more reasonable person/s of the management company.
I hold directorship of a self managed management company, and such issues that you have posted, we would either discuss and vote upon, at either an annual general meeting, or at am extraordinary general meeting.
I rather believe that the individual being confrontational is nothing more than a bombastic trouble maker, and that management company will agree to the works you have had carried out.
One can search via this web site, https://www.duedil.com/ the registered address, named directors of the management company, the same will accord you the opportunity of raising the matter with a more reasonable person/s of the management company.
I hold directorship of a self managed management company, and such issues that you have posted, we would either discuss and vote upon, at either an annual general meeting, or at am extraordinary general meeting.
I rather believe that the individual being confrontational is nothing more than a bombastic trouble maker, and that management company will agree to the works you have had carried out.
Wildfire said:
He has threatened to take it down. To do this he will have to access our flat. I don't want to have to go to court over him trying to access the flat and my worry is that he will try to force his way in when I'm not there (either under some bullsh*t premis or when the OH is home) and get the boiler switched off.
My legal qualifications are from the same University as "some bloke down at the pub" but, having said that, you could point out to him that if he touches your boiler installation he will be committing a criminal offence unless he is on the Gas Safe Register (true?), as well as Criminal Damage (persist if Police take the 'civil matter' tack). Get decent locks. Wildfire said:
Thanks guys. I'll give the Leasehold AS a ring.
The new flue exits exactly where the old one did. I will put up pics tomorrow. His main issue is around the plume kit that is required to extend the flue to the regulation >30cm from an opening window.
Our Heating engineer has said he will not remove the kit as it will be in violation of current regs. The Head of the RA has now demanded that we relocate the boiler to somewhere else (which we can't afford) or have a new window put in (which we also can't afford).
His point is that other flats have had new boilers in without plume extensions on, but both were done by his mate and also do not have opening windows. He said he doesn't care about legislation and that as we have breached the under lease he will send out a solicitor's letter (which we get charged for) and will continue to do so until we have our boiler relocated.
He has threatened to take it down. To do this he will have to access our flat. I don't want to have to go to court over him trying to access the flat and my worry is that he will try to force his way in when I'm not there (either under some bullsh*t premis or when the OH is home) and get the boiler switched off. I work away a fair bit too, which gives me more worries.
The structure of the lease is that the Freeholders leased it to the management company (resident run and we are all shareholders) and the management company sub-leases out to owners.
We did get verbal agreement for the work to go ahead and went to considerable expense to ensure that the brickwork was matched up too.
The clause is wooly in the lease and says we must obtain permission, which we got. It is only in his opinion that it looks unsightly.
The guy has made our lives hell since we moved in. Th OH is actually scared to go out and avoids leaving when he is wandering around. We've decided to keep a diary of his threats and conversations from now on, as it's pretty much intimidation.
After chatting to another resident, it seems that he has had issue with 3 other residents, two who are not white and one who has a Asian partner. Myself being Chinese I am starting to see a pattern.
" He said he doesn't care about the legislation"The new flue exits exactly where the old one did. I will put up pics tomorrow. His main issue is around the plume kit that is required to extend the flue to the regulation >30cm from an opening window.
Our Heating engineer has said he will not remove the kit as it will be in violation of current regs. The Head of the RA has now demanded that we relocate the boiler to somewhere else (which we can't afford) or have a new window put in (which we also can't afford).
His point is that other flats have had new boilers in without plume extensions on, but both were done by his mate and also do not have opening windows. He said he doesn't care about legislation and that as we have breached the under lease he will send out a solicitor's letter (which we get charged for) and will continue to do so until we have our boiler relocated.
He has threatened to take it down. To do this he will have to access our flat. I don't want to have to go to court over him trying to access the flat and my worry is that he will try to force his way in when I'm not there (either under some bullsh*t premis or when the OH is home) and get the boiler switched off. I work away a fair bit too, which gives me more worries.
The structure of the lease is that the Freeholders leased it to the management company (resident run and we are all shareholders) and the management company sub-leases out to owners.
We did get verbal agreement for the work to go ahead and went to considerable expense to ensure that the brickwork was matched up too.
The clause is wooly in the lease and says we must obtain permission, which we got. It is only in his opinion that it looks unsightly.
The guy has made our lives hell since we moved in. Th OH is actually scared to go out and avoids leaving when he is wandering around. We've decided to keep a diary of his threats and conversations from now on, as it's pretty much intimidation.
After chatting to another resident, it seems that he has had issue with 3 other residents, two who are not white and one who has a Asian partner. Myself being Chinese I am starting to see a pattern.
Edited by Wildfire on Wednesday 8th October 23:52
Really?
Give your local HSE office a ring.
If it really is as you say, and his mate has ignored the clearances required then he is in a world of trouble.
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