Will information and clarification questions
Discussion
OK, a couple of quick questions for any legal eagles on here 
A new website has recently been unveiled which allows full access to searching through millions of wills since 1858 and for a mere £10 fee, a copy of the grant and will can be downloaded. Link to the website is: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
So having downloaded a will I found that it also provided an additional document which provided the full amount of the estate of the deceased.
When reading the information provided on a grant which is supplied with a will, it states that the gross value of the said estate in the United Kingdom is XXXX, and the net value of the said estate amounts to XXXX.
Could some please clarify what these two values mean?
Also...
Might I ask when the will was scanned to the central database, would it be when the will was drawn up by the solicitor, etc, or would be it when scanned at probate? The reason I ask this is to determine whether an older copy of a will could be substituted instead of a more recent one by an evil step-mother or step-father.
In view of the potential fraud involved with multiple wills floating around, surely it would be advantageous if all wills were submitted to a central database as per a vehicle registration document to prevent this from occurring.
A new website has recently been unveiled which allows full access to searching through millions of wills since 1858 and for a mere £10 fee, a copy of the grant and will can be downloaded. Link to the website is: https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills
So having downloaded a will I found that it also provided an additional document which provided the full amount of the estate of the deceased.
When reading the information provided on a grant which is supplied with a will, it states that the gross value of the said estate in the United Kingdom is XXXX, and the net value of the said estate amounts to XXXX.
Could some please clarify what these two values mean?
Also...
Might I ask when the will was scanned to the central database, would it be when the will was drawn up by the solicitor, etc, or would be it when scanned at probate? The reason I ask this is to determine whether an older copy of a will could be substituted instead of a more recent one by an evil step-mother or step-father.
In view of the potential fraud involved with multiple wills floating around, surely it would be advantageous if all wills were submitted to a central database as per a vehicle registration document to prevent this from occurring.
Having just gone through the probate process I can probably answer this one for you.
The gross value of the estate is the calculated total value of all of the assets of the estate....this could include property, bank accounts, shares, amounts owed to the estate etc.
The nett amount is this figure, less all of the liabilities that the estate owes....so this will include outstanding bills, loans, mortgage etc.
The will only becomes a matter of public record once probate has been granted. Prior to this the original will is normally held by a solicitor (but not always) and a copy (or copies) by the person who made the will. If the executors don't need to apply for probate then that will won't become public record.
The gross value of the estate is the calculated total value of all of the assets of the estate....this could include property, bank accounts, shares, amounts owed to the estate etc.
The nett amount is this figure, less all of the liabilities that the estate owes....so this will include outstanding bills, loans, mortgage etc.
The will only becomes a matter of public record once probate has been granted. Prior to this the original will is normally held by a solicitor (but not always) and a copy (or copies) by the person who made the will. If the executors don't need to apply for probate then that will won't become public record.
Having just gone through the probate process I can probably answer this one for you.
The gross value of the estate is the calculated total value of all of the assets of the estate....this could include property, bank accounts, shares, amounts owed to the estate etc.
The nett amount is this figure, less all of the liabilities that the estate owes....so this will include outstanding bills, loans, mortgage etc.
The will only becomes a matter of public record once probate has been granted. Prior to this the original will is normally held by a solicitor (but not always) and a copy (or copies) by the person who made the will. If the executors don't need to apply for probate then that will won't become public record.
The gross value of the estate is the calculated total value of all of the assets of the estate....this could include property, bank accounts, shares, amounts owed to the estate etc.
The nett amount is this figure, less all of the liabilities that the estate owes....so this will include outstanding bills, loans, mortgage etc.
The will only becomes a matter of public record once probate has been granted. Prior to this the original will is normally held by a solicitor (but not always) and a copy (or copies) by the person who made the will. If the executors don't need to apply for probate then that will won't become public record.
^^ This 
- from recently applying for Grant of Administration (the deceased died intestate) rather than Grant of Probate .
As regards wills being held centrally, the latest one is the one that pays (sorry!
) - and the system where wills are held by a solicitor generally seems to work OK (like the death certification and Coronial system has done for centuries with only a [relatively] few failures [eg Shipman])? I am aware that wills can be contested, though - and I am acutely aware that the passing of one's dearly beloved can "bring out the best" in some people... 
As such, perhaps the OP makes a good and valid point (and that point in itself is a sad reflection on society?)...
- from recently applying for Grant of Administration (the deceased died intestate) rather than Grant of Probate . As regards wills being held centrally, the latest one is the one that pays (sorry!
) - and the system where wills are held by a solicitor generally seems to work OK (like the death certification and Coronial system has done for centuries with only a [relatively] few failures [eg Shipman])? I am aware that wills can be contested, though - and I am acutely aware that the passing of one's dearly beloved can "bring out the best" in some people... As such, perhaps the OP makes a good and valid point (and that point in itself is a sad reflection on society?)...
jon66 said:
If the executors don't need to apply for probate then that will won't become public record.
There will be few estates that will not require a Grant of Probate or Letters of Administration. The legal threshold below which it is not required is very low - 5k after funeral costs.Some financial institutions set their own benchmark which can be higher than this (one that I dealt with about 8 years ago didn't require it under £15k). I still had to obtain probate though as the value of the whole estate was well in excess of that.
Thanks for the clarification on the two subjects.
And yes you are quite right about bringing the best, and occasionally the worst out in people at a time when those closest are at their most vulnerable.
My thoughts regarding the timing of the scanning of the will is due to the fact that many couples nowadays suffer from divorce so the leaving of the estate isn't so clear cut as in the olden days.
For example, if said husband has married a couple of times, and had children from multiple wives and writes out a new will each time, then perhaps moves house and uses a different solicitor, the children will probably be unaware of the situation and where the most recent will is being stored, and to be honest, bringing up the contents of a will is a very difficult task indeed. However, if the subject isn't broached whilst they are still alive, then you can guarantee that it could leave a bitter taste in the aftermath.
So what I'm suggesting is that whenever a will is created by a solicitor, or indeed a DIY will, it should be centrally registered and stored, just as a car registration document is stored. This way, there will be little chance of older wills being used by black widow step-mothers, step-fathers, or for that matter, anyone else looking to change the will writers wishes. From the looks of things the central storage facility is already in place, so only needs a small bit of fine tuning with the relevant law to ensure that valid wills are stored before death, not after.
Having done some research on this subject I was quite astonished to learn that children of the deceased are actually better off if no will is written because the estate is shared out equally, with 50% going to the surviving wife or husband, and the other 50% shared between their children which I reckon is a fairer system than trusting the step-mother to share it out fairly, before she does a runner with the whole estate. In the event that there is no married partner or children and no valid will, then of course the whole of the estate is absorbed into the coffers of the state.
Thoughts on this delicate subject much appreciated.
And yes you are quite right about bringing the best, and occasionally the worst out in people at a time when those closest are at their most vulnerable.
My thoughts regarding the timing of the scanning of the will is due to the fact that many couples nowadays suffer from divorce so the leaving of the estate isn't so clear cut as in the olden days.
For example, if said husband has married a couple of times, and had children from multiple wives and writes out a new will each time, then perhaps moves house and uses a different solicitor, the children will probably be unaware of the situation and where the most recent will is being stored, and to be honest, bringing up the contents of a will is a very difficult task indeed. However, if the subject isn't broached whilst they are still alive, then you can guarantee that it could leave a bitter taste in the aftermath.
So what I'm suggesting is that whenever a will is created by a solicitor, or indeed a DIY will, it should be centrally registered and stored, just as a car registration document is stored. This way, there will be little chance of older wills being used by black widow step-mothers, step-fathers, or for that matter, anyone else looking to change the will writers wishes. From the looks of things the central storage facility is already in place, so only needs a small bit of fine tuning with the relevant law to ensure that valid wills are stored before death, not after.
Having done some research on this subject I was quite astonished to learn that children of the deceased are actually better off if no will is written because the estate is shared out equally, with 50% going to the surviving wife or husband, and the other 50% shared between their children which I reckon is a fairer system than trusting the step-mother to share it out fairly, before she does a runner with the whole estate. In the event that there is no married partner or children and no valid will, then of course the whole of the estate is absorbed into the coffers of the state.
Thoughts on this delicate subject much appreciated.
Slidingpillar said:
Although the intent is good, you are proposing a further layer of bureaucracy which will cost.
And also forgetting that, dislike it as much as some do, it is the Testator's money to leave as they wish. They could have had 2 children at the age of 19 and not seen them after they left the mother aged 25. Meantime they met and marry another and then die 40 years later having raised and been adored by the 2 children from the new marriage. Would you say that the estate should go 4 ways?If he left the partnership (or whatever) at 19 and did not see first 2 sproggs again, I suggest he would be paying a contribution to their upbringing either voluntarily or via CSA (unless of course they were later legally adopted by another).The Inheritance Act is clear that there is a potential claim on the estranged dad's estate open to first 2 sproggs if they are not appropriately catered for in his Will after death.
Just to highlight a point,
My brother died in april of last year, while working in the US. He did not leave a signed will and His wife and Her financial advisor (He is Uk based) advised us that there was no need to put the estate into probate as its total value was less than £350 K.
I have since found out that the estate is valued at above the £ 350 K, half share of London house and shares / stoks. But as the advisor and my Brothers wife are adament that they will not do anything else and that its all go go to Her. Our Mother and me get nothing.
So be warned, make sure you and any close relatives have a fully upto date will and its signed.
My brother died in april of last year, while working in the US. He did not leave a signed will and His wife and Her financial advisor (He is Uk based) advised us that there was no need to put the estate into probate as its total value was less than £350 K.
I have since found out that the estate is valued at above the £ 350 K, half share of London house and shares / stoks. But as the advisor and my Brothers wife are adament that they will not do anything else and that its all go go to Her. Our Mother and me get nothing.
So be warned, make sure you and any close relatives have a fully upto date will and its signed.
Rude-boy said:
Slidingpillar said:
Although the intent is good, you are proposing a further layer of bureaucracy which will cost.
And also forgetting that, dislike it as much as some do, it is the Testator's money to leave as they wish. They could have had 2 children at the age of 19 and not seen them after they left the mother aged 25. Meantime they met and marry another and then die 40 years later having raised and been adored by the 2 children from the new marriage. Would you say that the estate should go 4 ways?As the law currently stands it is quite possible to have multiple will floating around in various solicitors offices. The only person who will probably know the whereabouts of all these wills will probably be the current wife who quite rightly has a vested interest.
Now should the husband write out a new will at a new solicitor which she doesn't approve of, when said husband dies she uses one of the earlier wills and burns the newer versions.
Surely it would be easier to scan wills as they are made and then uploaded into the central database so that the most up-to-date versions are held on record for all to see.
Bearing in mind the large amounts of money are potentially at risk of fraudulent behaviour, this change in processing would nip the problem in the bud.
It's not like the central records department has to be built at huge additional cost to the taxpayer because it's already in operation, all that needs to be changed is the timing of the scanning and uploading of the wills to the central archives.
You're not telling me that registering a will which could have an estate worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds is less important than registering a £50 car purchased on ebay?
The change in procedure wouldn't take much effort to implement so why not just do it.
3Dee said:
If he left the partnership (or whatever) at 19 and did not see first 2 sproggs again, I suggest he would be paying a contribution to their upbringing either voluntarily or via CSA (unless of course they were later legally adopted by another).The Inheritance Act is clear that there is a potential claim on the estranged dad's estate open to first 2 sproggs if they are not appropriately catered for in his Will after death.
Whilst I agree that you are correct to say that the Will could be contested it is not a given and you will note that I chose my timelines with care. If the testator died 40 years after leaving the 1st wife and children and had nothing to do with them other than the CSA payments which would have ceased at least 20 years before DoD then there is a slim to bugger all chance of the court ruling in favour of the two eldest children given 20+ years of adult estrangement.It does remind me to mention though that if anyone is ever thinking of doing something 'unusual' such as leaving someone out of a Will who outsiders might have thought would benefit, it is always best to have the Will drawn up properly.
DCS01 said:
Just to highlight a point,
My brother died in april of last year, while working in the US. He did not leave a signed will and His wife and Her financial advisor (He is Uk based) advised us that there was no need to put the estate into probate as its total value was less than £350 K.
I have since found out that the estate is valued at above the £ 350 K, half share of London house and shares / stoks. But as the advisor and my Brothers wife are adament that they will not do anything else and that its all go go to Her. Our Mother and me get nothing.
So be warned, make sure you and any close relatives have a fully unto date will and its signed.
Sorry to hear what happened to your brother, it's devastating to learn the bad news, especially when it happens thousands of miles away.My brother died in april of last year, while working in the US. He did not leave a signed will and His wife and Her financial advisor (He is Uk based) advised us that there was no need to put the estate into probate as its total value was less than £350 K.
I have since found out that the estate is valued at above the £ 350 K, half share of London house and shares / stoks. But as the advisor and my Brothers wife are adament that they will not do anything else and that its all go go to Her. Our Mother and me get nothing.
So be warned, make sure you and any close relatives have a fully unto date will and its signed.
I would be inclined to contact a solicitor who specialises in will writing just to confirm what you have been told especially with the sums of money at stake.
For anyone else interested, have just found this official link https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-w...
Also might be worth taking a look at: https://www.gov.uk/browse/births-deaths-marriages/...
It's a horrible subject to broach with your parents when they are alive, but it really is in your best interests to at least know what may happen when the worst happens. Unfortunately trust can no longer be relied upon where large sums of money are at stake.
rich888 said:
You miss my point.
As the law currently stands it is quite possible to have multiple will floating around in various solicitors offices. The only person who will probably know the whereabouts of all these wills will probably be the current wife who quite rightly has a vested interest.
Now should the husband write out a new will at a new solicitor which she doesn't approve of, when said husband dies she uses one of the earlier wills and burns the newer versions.
Surely it would be easier to scan wills as they are made and then uploaded into the central database so that the most up-to-date versions are held on record for all to see.
Bearing in mind the large amounts of money are potentially at risk of fraudulent behaviour, this change in processing would nip the problem in the bud.
It's not like the central records department has to be built at huge additional cost to the taxpayer because it's already in operation, all that needs to be changed is the timing of the scanning and uploading of the wills to the central archives.
You're not telling me that registering a will which could have an estate worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds is less important than registering a £50 car purchased on ebay?
The change in procedure wouldn't take much effort to implement so why not just do it.
This is in existence:- http://www.certainty.co.uk/ but it is not fool proof.As the law currently stands it is quite possible to have multiple will floating around in various solicitors offices. The only person who will probably know the whereabouts of all these wills will probably be the current wife who quite rightly has a vested interest.
Now should the husband write out a new will at a new solicitor which she doesn't approve of, when said husband dies she uses one of the earlier wills and burns the newer versions.
Surely it would be easier to scan wills as they are made and then uploaded into the central database so that the most up-to-date versions are held on record for all to see.
Bearing in mind the large amounts of money are potentially at risk of fraudulent behaviour, this change in processing would nip the problem in the bud.
It's not like the central records department has to be built at huge additional cost to the taxpayer because it's already in operation, all that needs to be changed is the timing of the scanning and uploading of the wills to the central archives.
You're not telling me that registering a will which could have an estate worth hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds is less important than registering a £50 car purchased on ebay?
The change in procedure wouldn't take much effort to implement so why not just do it.
I could male a Will, have it resisted there and then tomorrow make another that I pass to my best friend to produce if appropriate.
Rich888,
Thanks for the link's, we tried through a local solicitors, that Mum has used for other things, but our money ran out, to take it further. Guess the only thing left is to contact the probate office and see if they can do anything about an intestate estate not being reported. The total of what my Brother left was around £450 K, that includes a half of their house, in London. My Brother's wife is staying in the US, so is well outside of our reach.
Thanks for the link's, we tried through a local solicitors, that Mum has used for other things, but our money ran out, to take it further. Guess the only thing left is to contact the probate office and see if they can do anything about an intestate estate not being reported. The total of what my Brother left was around £450 K, that includes a half of their house, in London. My Brother's wife is staying in the US, so is well outside of our reach.
DCS01 said:
Just to highlight a point,
My brother died in april of last year, while working in the US. He did not leave a signed will and His wife and Her financial advisor (He is Uk based) advised us that there was no need to put the estate into probate as its total value was less than £350 K.
I have since found out that the estate is valued at above the £ 350 K, half share of London house and shares / stoks. But as the advisor and my Brothers wife are adament that they will not do anything else and that its all go go to Her. Our Mother and me get nothing.
So be warned, make sure you and any close relatives have a fully upto date will and its signed.
Her financial advisor seems to be a tad confused. It's not a question of needing probate: as your brother died intestate it doesn't apply. She is not an executor so will have to apply for a grant of representation to be the administrator of the estate (often referred to as Letters of Administration). A subtle but relevant distinction. I'm also as curious about where he had dredged up the figure of £350k. It doesn't relate to anything that makes sense to me. My brother died in april of last year, while working in the US. He did not leave a signed will and His wife and Her financial advisor (He is Uk based) advised us that there was no need to put the estate into probate as its total value was less than £350 K.
I have since found out that the estate is valued at above the £ 350 K, half share of London house and shares / stoks. But as the advisor and my Brothers wife are adament that they will not do anything else and that its all go go to Her. Our Mother and me get nothing.
So be warned, make sure you and any close relatives have a fully upto date will and its signed.
Who gets what is governed by the Intestacy Rules. Another poster has provided the link. Follow the steps and click on the relevant radio button in answer to each question. You will then find out whether you or your mother are entitled to part of the estate (very unlikely based on the limited information we have). There is one very significant question which will have a bearing on what his wife gets: do your deceased brother and his wife have any living descendants (i.e. children/grandchildren)?
Btw, note that the Rules in Scotland are quite different from those in E&W.
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