Selling car on street - council doesn't like it

[EskimoArapaho]

Got home today to find a letter posted to me from the "Public Realm Enforcement" department of my council. It's about my car, parked outside of our house with "For sale" poster in the windscreen. It's my own car, owned for 6 years, it's the only car I have for sale (a lovely mint-condition Aygo, if anyone's interested!) and I don't and never have traded cars.

Council says that the Local Government Act 1972 makes it an offence to do this "in the course of a business". Well, that's not relevant to me, so...

The council then says "The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 gives further provision for Local Authorities to deal with vehicles for sale on a highway whether advertised as part of a business or as a private sale ... fine not exceeding £2500 ... please ensure that all vehicles advertised for sale are parked off road and within the boundary of your property."

This was news to me. So I looked up the relevant Act - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2005/16/sectio... - and it says:

HMG said:

Exposing vehicles for sale on a road

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if at any time—

(a)he leaves two or more motor vehicles parked within 500 metres of each other on a road or roads where they are exposed or advertised for sale, or

(b)he causes two or more motor vehicles to be so left.

(2)A person is not to be convicted of an offence under subsection (1) if he proves to the satisfaction of the court that he was not acting for the purposes of a business of selling motor vehicles.

My council's letter doesn't mention this bold bit at all. Is it just a scare tactic?

Edited by EskimoArapaho on Wednesday 18th February 18:59

[Adrian E]

Maybe someone complained? Just ring 'em up and explain (whilst pointing out their obvious omission that it only applies if you're doing it as a business)

[Magic919]

Cambridge Council Website Says said:

On-street vehicle sales and repairs

It is an offence to offer two or more vehicles for sale within 500 metres of each other for business purposes. An individual person selling multiple vehicles will not be convicted if they can prove they were not acting for the purposes of a business.

I presume this is your council.

[V8forweekends]

I thought these flippers were busy closing down all the libraries and old folks homes because they have no cash WTF?

[Type R Tom]

It was a warning and as you weren't doing anything wrong I wouldn't worry about it, they probably do it to every car.

And before people start jumping all over the Council in the usual PH way, clearly there must be a problem with people using the public highway for selling cars otherwise the government wouldn't have introduced the legislation. A few minutes on Ebay and you can find people selling cars "privately" which are clearly working as a business.

[mgtony]

I heard about this a while back. This is another London borough where it seems even your one and only private car is still not allowed to have a for sale sign in it. They threaten to issue a FPN or tow it away!

http://www2.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/parking_rubbish_a...

ETA Article says "It is an offence under Section 38 of the London Local Authorities Act 1990 to expose or offer for sale any vehicle on a public street."

Edited by mgtony on Wednesday 18th February 18:54

[EskimoArapaho]

Magic919 said:

I presume this is your council.

Indeed, and as you can see, its own Website contradicts the letter sent. And they had to waste time (money?) on getting my details from DVLA.

[V8forweekends]

Type R Tom said:

It was a warning and as you weren't doing anything wrong I wouldn't worry about it, they probably do it to every car.

And before people start jumping all over the Council in the usual PH way, clearly there must be a problem with people using the public highway for selling cars otherwise the government wouldn't have introduced the legislation. A few minutes on Ebay and you can find people selling cars "privately" which are clearly working as a business.

No problem with a Council stopping "Mr 5+ different cars a week parked on the street for sale" - do have a problem with the very obvious waste of time and cash they've spent on the OP. They are supposed to be short of resources - flip knows they are always bleating about it.

[Magic919]

That's a few quid of your Council tax wasted.

It's quite a problem here near Slough, but they mostly put stickers over the For Sale notices.

[JustinP1]

Type R Tom said:

It was a warning and as you weren't doing anything wrong I wouldn't worry about it, they probably do it to every car.

And before people start jumping all over the Council in the usual PH way, clearly there must be a problem with people using the public highway for selling cars otherwise the government wouldn't have introduced the legislation. A few minutes on Ebay and you can find people selling cars "privately" which are clearly working as a business.

What's more of a problem?

Someone selling a car on the street?

Or, someone sending official letters deliberately misrepresenting the law, and entirely wrongly purporting that someone is breaking the law, and could be liable for a four figure fine?

[Type R Tom]

JustinP1 said:

Type R Tom said:

It was a warning and as you weren't doing anything wrong I wouldn't worry about it, they probably do it to every car.

And before people start jumping all over the Council in the usual PH way, clearly there must be a problem with people using the public highway for selling cars otherwise the government wouldn't have introduced the legislation. A few minutes on Ebay and you can find people selling cars "privately" which are clearly working as a business.

What's more of a problem?

Someone selling a car on the street?

Or, someone sending official letters deliberately misrepresenting the law, and entirely wrongly purporting that someone is breaking the law, and could be liable for a four figure fine?

The problem is that how do we know there wasn't a car next door also for sale or the end of the street? Or that the council officer didn't knock on the door to check? It's not impossible to have several cars for sale on one street or a neighbour who is annoyed with a car parked on the road and grassed him up. All of these things would have required an element of research with an associated cost.

If someone is employed to walk the streets looking for things, pot holes, rubbish, illegal parking etc. should they really pick and choose what elements of their job they should do? Based on the quote from the OP the officer has done his job and on the face of it has no way of proving that the car for sale is a business or not.

Please explain how you feel this should be dealt with?

[Mr2Mike]

Type R Tom said:

And before people start jumping all over the Council in the usual PH way,

Councils need to be jumped on regularly and from a great height. They are money wasting, self serving tts who are primarily interested in their own pay rises and old boy club.

[Mojooo]

I suspect it is actually enforcement on the cheap

I suspect that someone has complained, it is likely that there was more than one car on sale and not related to you - but the cheap way of dealing with it is sending a letter rather than going out and checking it out.


TBF I suspect people would be complaining if a council officer drove 20 miles to check it out.

[johnao]

mgtony said:

I heard about this a while back. This is another London borough where it seems even your one and only private car is still not allowed to have a for sale sign in it. They threaten to issue a FPN or tow it away!

http://www2.redbridge.gov.uk/cms/parking_rubbish_a...

ETA Article says "It is an offence under Section 38 of the London Local Authorities Act 1990 to expose or offer for sale any vehicle on a public street."

Edited by mgtony on Wednesday 18th February 18:54

The legal position seems to depend on where you live. If you live in London it's... Section 38 of the London Local Authorities Act 1990, whereas outside of London it's... The Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005.

Section 38 seems, (but please check for yourself), not to have a get out clause for private sellers selling their own cars on the street, whereas the Clean Neighbourhoods Act does have that proviso.

[SK425]

Type R Tom said:

JustinP1 said:

What's more of a problem?

Someone selling a car on the street?

Or, someone sending official letters deliberately misrepresenting the law, and entirely wrongly purporting that someone is breaking the law, and could be liable for a four figure fine?

The problem is that how do we know there wasn't a car next door also for sale or the end of the street? Or that the council officer didn't knock on the door to check? It's not impossible to have several cars for sale on one street or a neighbour who is annoyed with a car parked on the road and grassed him up. All of these things would have required an element of research with an associated cost.

If someone is employed to walk the streets looking for things, pot holes, rubbish, illegal parking etc. should they really pick and choose what elements of their job they should do? Based on the quote from the OP the officer has done his job and on the face of it has no way of proving that the car for sale is a business or not.

Please explain how you feel this should be dealt with?

Well, wrongly purporting that someone is breaking the law is certainly not how this should be dealt with. On the face of it, it appears that that's what the council's done.

If resource constraints preclude sufficient investigation to ensure only actual offenders are targeted, and the alternative is letters to everyone who might be an offender, then the letters ought to be less snotty. After making clear exactly what is and is not permitted, something along the lines of "Please accept our apologies if the big nasty threats in our letter don't apply to you" along with an explanation as to why letters are be sent to people to whom they don't apply would be in order.

[Chrisgr31]

Presumably the solution is to just write to the council stating that in your opinion the act does not apply as you are selling your provate car.

[V8forweekends]

Mr2Mike said:

Councils need to be jumped on regularly and from a great height. They are money wasting, self serving tts who are primarily interested in their own pay rises and old boy club.

This. They are dire.

[Boosted LS1]

Some councils are bullies. The larger they are the worse they become. I have an issue with Nottingham City over it's non advertised Civil Enforcement Areas. They must be coining it in.

[V8forweekends]

Type R Tom said:

The problem is that how do we know there wasn't a car next door also for sale or the end of the street? Or that the council officer didn't knock on the door to check? It's not impossible to have several cars for sale on one street or a neighbour who is annoyed with a car parked on the road and grassed him up. All of these things would have required an element of research with an associated cost.

If someone is employed to walk the streets looking for things, pot holes, rubbish, illegal parking etc. should they really pick and choose what elements of their job they should do? Based on the quote from the OP the officer has done his job and on the face of it has no way of proving that the car for sale is a business or not.

Please explain how you feel this should be dealt with?

Piece o piss. 1 car = no pissy letter. If several cars close by for sale (with same contact details = pissy letter). Common sense 1 Council wonk Nil in this case, it really is that simple.

[V8forweekends]

Boosted LS1 said:

Some councils are bullies. The larger they are the worse they become. I have an issue with Nottingham City over it's non advertised Civil Enforcement Areas. They must be coining it in.

This. My Local Authority is flaming hopless at almost everything, but if you, however gently, suggest there might be a different way something might get done, you are hit with the full blast of their assertiveness training.