working horn - the law
Discussion
At work, on all our response cars and ambulance's the sirens are activated by pressing the horn. The "999" button turns on all the lights, and then when required you press the horn once to activate the sirens, again to change siren tone and double tap to switch of the sirens (or use the button on the dash, but as that's small and surrounded by other little buttons it's easier to doubletab the horn.
On my reponse car, when i have my sirens on, my horn still works. However today i drove one of our new ambulance's for a change and whilst having all blue lights on and the sirens blaring this idiot pulled out in front of me on a mini roundabout (despite me having right of way, even if i wasn't on a call) so i pressed the horn to beep at him as we had to brake hard, only to find out that the horn no longer works with the sirens engaged.
It still changes the siren tone (from the long 'wheeeeew-wheeeeew' to the faster 'wheew-wheew-wheew-wheew' etc) but there is no actual horn sound, like one would expect.
People constantly pull out in front of us or do silly things, even with the sirens on, so just a change in tone isn't going to do much when the 4 cars in front of you all pull over, but car number 5 decides to start overtaking those 4 when you're pulling up next to him to overtake that row of cars.
I was a bit suprised by the fact the horn has now been deactivated when the sirens are engaged, which apparently is the case on all our new ambulance's.
I was under the impression that you must have a working horn by law, even as an emergency vehicle.
All i can find online is this though :
"Regulation :37/99
Act :Road Vehicles (Construction And Use) Regulations 1986
Subject :Warning Instruments
Every motor vehicle shall be fitted with an instrument capable of giving audible and sufficient warning of its approach or position (unless max, speed is 20mph or less). The sound emitted shall be continuous, uniform, and not strident (applies only if vehicle first used after 1.8.73). A reversing alarm shall not be strident. The sound emitted may not be a gong, bell, siren or two tone horn (unless an emergency vehicle). May not be sounded when stationary. May not be sounded on a restricted road between 23:30 and 07:00."
Is there any others laws/rules about this by any chance, so i can bring this up at work supported by some clear regulations by any chance ?
On my reponse car, when i have my sirens on, my horn still works. However today i drove one of our new ambulance's for a change and whilst having all blue lights on and the sirens blaring this idiot pulled out in front of me on a mini roundabout (despite me having right of way, even if i wasn't on a call) so i pressed the horn to beep at him as we had to brake hard, only to find out that the horn no longer works with the sirens engaged.
It still changes the siren tone (from the long 'wheeeeew-wheeeeew' to the faster 'wheew-wheew-wheew-wheew' etc) but there is no actual horn sound, like one would expect.
People constantly pull out in front of us or do silly things, even with the sirens on, so just a change in tone isn't going to do much when the 4 cars in front of you all pull over, but car number 5 decides to start overtaking those 4 when you're pulling up next to him to overtake that row of cars.
I was a bit suprised by the fact the horn has now been deactivated when the sirens are engaged, which apparently is the case on all our new ambulance's.
I was under the impression that you must have a working horn by law, even as an emergency vehicle.
All i can find online is this though :
"Regulation :37/99
Act :Road Vehicles (Construction And Use) Regulations 1986
Subject :Warning Instruments
Every motor vehicle shall be fitted with an instrument capable of giving audible and sufficient warning of its approach or position (unless max, speed is 20mph or less). The sound emitted shall be continuous, uniform, and not strident (applies only if vehicle first used after 1.8.73). A reversing alarm shall not be strident. The sound emitted may not be a gong, bell, siren or two tone horn (unless an emergency vehicle). May not be sounded when stationary. May not be sounded on a restricted road between 23:30 and 07:00."
Is there any others laws/rules about this by any chance, so i can bring this up at work supported by some clear regulations by any chance ?
Doesn't specify 'horn' but 'audible warning instrument'.
If he didn't hear the sirens - either as you had them or when the tap of the horn button which changed them then I suspect a small nuclear device wouldn't have much effect either. So a horn or the shouting of rude words isn't going to do much
IIRC the change-with-the-horn-button system was fitted on all our cars (the ones fitted with sirens) the last time I drove them - that was pre 2000 - so I suspect the same would apply as you found.
Could be argued that the change in the sound would have the same effect as sounding a horn & it being an emergency vehicle gets round 'The sound emitted may not be a gong, bell, siren or two tone horn'.
As ever, I stand to be corrected
If he didn't hear the sirens - either as you had them or when the tap of the horn button which changed them then I suspect a small nuclear device wouldn't have much effect either. So a horn or the shouting of rude words isn't going to do much
IIRC the change-with-the-horn-button system was fitted on all our cars (the ones fitted with sirens) the last time I drove them - that was pre 2000 - so I suspect the same would apply as you found.
Could be argued that the change in the sound would have the same effect as sounding a horn & it being an emergency vehicle gets round 'The sound emitted may not be a gong, bell, siren or two tone horn'.
As ever, I stand to be corrected
Pleased about this - don't mind the sirens (of course!) but fed up of hearing Fire Brigade driving around here trying to emulate Backdraft - as the poster above says - if people are too dim to react to the siren an extra horn's not going to help. OP were you just trying to vent your annoyance?
Impasse said:
Remember, no part of the driving test involves a hearing check.
Or an IQ/common sense test or observation test. I had this one night when I did some part time taxi work. Police on B &T coming toward me, with line of traffic before them. I (being empty0 got as far on pavement as possible to give them some room. Car behind obviously didn't see police car and sailed past me to have to take evasive action . I took VRN, and found the weekend traffic patrol. Passed on the details to get "the lads will like that - especially when the make a call". V8forweekends said:
Pleased about this - don't mind the sirens (of course!) but fed up of hearing Fire Brigade driving around here trying to emulate Backdraft -
Are you sure it's the fire brigade - they hardly turn out these days?Around us (near Chester, so not a mega busy place) it sometimes seems like there's almost constant paramedic fast response and ambulance sirens.
Medic-one said:
However today i drove one of our new ambulance's for a change and whilst having all blue lights on and the sirens blaring this idiot pulled out in front of me on a mini roundabout (despite me having right of way, even if i wasn't on a call) so i pressed the horn to beep at him as we had to brake hard, only to find out that the horn no longer works with the sirens engaged.
Without sounding too preachy, this is an incorrect use of the horn, whether it's working or not.The horn shouldn't be used as a rebuke after someone has made a mistake. It should only be used as a warning to other road users i.e. before someone makes a mistake, as a tactic to try to prevent them from doing something daft.
I wrote a piece on the correct use of the horn a few months ago:
I've been feeling horny lately...
Medic-one said:
People constantly pull out in front of us or do silly things, even with the sirens on, so just a change in tone isn't going to do much when the 4 cars in front of you all pull over, but car number 5 decides to start overtaking those 4 when you're pulling up next to him to overtake that row of cars.
This is a very common error and one you'll regularly see from members of the public. As others have already mentioned, there are deaf, distracted and daft drivers out there all the time. I think you're making a classic mistake made by numerous emergency response drivers - you're expecting the emergency equipment - the lights and sirens - to give you some extra protection from other road users.In reality, the equipment gives you absolutely no protection from idiots and you probably need to give yourself a small amount of extra time before committing to a gap or an overtake. Try to relax a little more and just concentrate on your own driving. If done correctly, emergency response driving can (believe it or not) be a very relaxing experience.
More here:
A police car and a screamin' siren
And a little here on maintaining a zone of relative safety (very appropriate for response driving):
The zone of relative safety
R_U_LOCAL said:
Medic-one said:
However today i drove one of our new ambulance's for a change and whilst having all blue lights on and the sirens blaring this idiot pulled out in front of me on a mini roundabout (despite me having right of way, even if i wasn't on a call) so i pressed the horn to beep at him as we had to brake hard, only to find out that the horn no longer works with the sirens engaged.
Without sounding too preachy, this is an incorrect use of the horn, whether it's working or not.defblade said:
Errrrr..... forgive me if I'm being stupid, but if sirens aren't sufficient warning of presence, what is a horn going to add?
True, one would think that. I would even think that, but i have actually found that when they don't hear the sirens (for whatever weird reason) and are about to pull about, a quick beep of the horn and all of a sudden the invisible big yellow box becomes visible...Sheepshanks said:
in the Regulation is sufficient?
But isn't that regulation more about when you're allowed to use and what they're allowed to sound like, we're exempt of the "not at night" and the "it's not allowed to be 2 tones", but it doesn't actually state we're exempt from being on the road driving along with a horn not working.R_U_LOCAL said:
Without sounding too preachy, this is an incorrect use of the horn, whether it's working or not.
The horn shouldn't be used as a rebuke after someone has made a mistake. It should only be used as a warning to other road users i.e. before someone makes a mistake, as a tactic to try to prevent them from doing something daft.
The thing is, i saw he was about to pull out, and that's when i used the horn, to prevent him doing so and to warn him of immenent danger (you're about to pull out in someone elses way whilst you should stop), and that's when i found out the horn didn't work, and that's why it's annoying me.The horn shouldn't be used as a rebuke after someone has made a mistake. It should only be used as a warning to other road users i.e. before someone makes a mistake, as a tactic to try to prevent them from doing something daft.
It wasn't trying to beep at him afterwards (not much point in that).
People do strange & frequently stupid things in response to the sound of sirens/two-tones.
I learnt quite quickly that sometimes it's better not to use them & just use the blue lights. Especially at traffic lights & junctions as you are less likely to find your selected line suddenly being shut off by someone swerving thinking they are being helpful.
Some just appear to be in what I call 'Thumb up bum & brain in neutral' mode & are entirely oblivious to what's happening around them.
Don't forget that lights/sirens are just to alert others to your presence. Always expect others to do something unexpected & you are unlikely to be caught out when they do. Your priority is to arrive safely at the job & if it takes a bit longer then so be it. Having an RTC en route & not arriving helps nobody.
Apologies if this sounds like a bit of a lecture but a fair number of colleagues had RTC - a couple serious involving injury to themselves or their crewmate - and the driving school had a big notice board with pics of several marked cars in their crashed positions with the header 'Don't let this happen to you'.
I learnt quite quickly that sometimes it's better not to use them & just use the blue lights. Especially at traffic lights & junctions as you are less likely to find your selected line suddenly being shut off by someone swerving thinking they are being helpful.
Some just appear to be in what I call 'Thumb up bum & brain in neutral' mode & are entirely oblivious to what's happening around them.
Don't forget that lights/sirens are just to alert others to your presence. Always expect others to do something unexpected & you are unlikely to be caught out when they do. Your priority is to arrive safely at the job & if it takes a bit longer then so be it. Having an RTC en route & not arriving helps nobody.
Apologies if this sounds like a bit of a lecture but a fair number of colleagues had RTC - a couple serious involving injury to themselves or their crewmate - and the driving school had a big notice board with pics of several marked cars in their crashed positions with the header 'Don't let this happen to you'.
Edited by paintman on Friday 1st May 08:11
Medic-one said:
All i can find online is this though :
"Regulation :37/99
Act :Road Vehicles (Construction And Use) Regulations 1986
Subject :Warning Instruments
Every motor vehicle shall be fitted with an instrument capable of giving audible and sufficient warning of its approach or position
Which it does."Regulation :37/99
Act :Road Vehicles (Construction And Use) Regulations 1986
Subject :Warning Instruments
Every motor vehicle shall be fitted with an instrument capable of giving audible and sufficient warning of its approach or position
Medic-one said:
(unless max, speed is 20mph or less). The sound emitted shall be continuous, uniform, and not strident (applies only if vehicle first used after 1.8.73). A reversing alarm shall not be strident.
None of which applies here.Medic-one said:
The sound emitted may not be a gong, bell, siren or two tone horn (unless an emergency vehicle).
That's OK, it is.Doesn't seem to be a problem there.
The equipment has been developed and fitted by a specialist firm, and approved before being put into service. They're not likely to have made such a basic error as forgetting about C&U. B'sides, if the raving numpty hasn't noticed a dayglo ball of flashing lights and sirens, will a "beep" really make a difference? The change in siren tone is far more likely to.
you horn works all the time, it's road legal, the fact you can activate a switch which temporarily disables the horn doesn't change a thing
I suspect it has been done on purpose, as you sometimes get frustrated emergency drivers beeping at cars waiting at red lights trying to encourage the driver to go against the light even though they know they are not meant to this.
I suspect it has been done on purpose, as you sometimes get frustrated emergency drivers beeping at cars waiting at red lights trying to encourage the driver to go against the light even though they know they are not meant to this.
ging84 said:
I suspect it has been done on purpose, as you sometimes get frustrated emergency drivers beeping at cars waiting at red lights trying to encourage the driver to go against the light even though they know they are not meant to this.
In most that would just make the siren tone keep changing.Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff