UK Policing. The end as we know it.
Discussion
With what appears to be a Tory majority forming in the House of Commons this morning, further cuts to UK policing appear to be on course and it is rumoured that 20% is the figure.
What are the thoughts from our PH BiB on what that will mean for the service?
On the face of it, it would seem to suggest that without root and branch reform of the 43 force model and service delivery, the cuts will decimate numbers and threaten the safety of UK citizens.
On the back of this we have seen falls in crime itself, including violent crime.
Is it a case of modernisation or bust?
What are the thoughts from our PH BiB on what that will mean for the service?
On the face of it, it would seem to suggest that without root and branch reform of the 43 force model and service delivery, the cuts will decimate numbers and threaten the safety of UK citizens.
On the back of this we have seen falls in crime itself, including violent crime.
Is it a case of modernisation or bust?
Chicken Chaser said:
On the back of this we have seen falls in crime itself, including violent crime.
Recorded crime. I'm not being a knob (despite what my name says) - but I've been both the victim and the perpetrator of violent crime. I've never reported it, and in most cases it wasn't reported when I did it... If there are less police to see things, and less police to investigate them then it follows that recording will fall.
The police service has already been wrecked, I don't see how it could get much worse. The NHS will be next though. I can see the Tories being quite happy to take the knives to that sacred cow, after all the complaining done in behalf of the NHS, which was backed by Labour. They'll pay the price for those complaints, I'm sure.
If there is a second round of cuts then there will be no policing as the term has been used in the past.
Even before the last round of cuts the UK had a significantly lower number of police officers per population figure than other similar countries in Europe.
With well over 20% cut in manpower already and a threat in this parliament there can be nothing other than response policing.
There is no 'reform' of the service, it is solely reduction in funding. Reform will cost money and there is none. In any case, the reform that the police have been asking for, for years, has not materialised. The bureaucracy has actually increased.
In my force the number of buildings has been reduced, this for capital and maintenance/heating etc. What this means is that certain towns now have no police station so a response to a burglary has to come from miles away. Journey time is wasted time.
But the main concern for many will be the lack of ability to respond to riots. For the last lot in London, the biggest police force int he country could not respond with any degree of force. And that was before the last round of cuts. Next riot, they can get on with it with a request to let the police know when it is all over.
One thing which will increase is the spin on figures.
Even before the last round of cuts the UK had a significantly lower number of police officers per population figure than other similar countries in Europe.
With well over 20% cut in manpower already and a threat in this parliament there can be nothing other than response policing.
There is no 'reform' of the service, it is solely reduction in funding. Reform will cost money and there is none. In any case, the reform that the police have been asking for, for years, has not materialised. The bureaucracy has actually increased.
In my force the number of buildings has been reduced, this for capital and maintenance/heating etc. What this means is that certain towns now have no police station so a response to a burglary has to come from miles away. Journey time is wasted time.
But the main concern for many will be the lack of ability to respond to riots. For the last lot in London, the biggest police force int he country could not respond with any degree of force. And that was before the last round of cuts. Next riot, they can get on with it with a request to let the police know when it is all over.
One thing which will increase is the spin on figures.
if it means an end to the corruption, lies, peado cover-ups, chasing the wrong criminals, etc then I welcome it
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
Chicken Chaser said:
With what appears to be a Tory majority forming in the House of Commons this morning, further cuts to UK policing appear to be on course and it is rumoured that 20% is the figure.
What are the thoughts from our PH BiB on what that will mean for the service?
On the face of it, it would seem to suggest that without root and branch reform of the 43 force model and service delivery, the cuts will decimate numbers and threaten the safety of UK citizens.
On the back of this we have seen falls in crime itself, including violent crime.
Is it a case of modernisation or bust?
Whilst I voted Tory and am happy they seem to be continuing in power I had a meeting with a DC from the Met police yesterday in relation to my work.What are the thoughts from our PH BiB on what that will mean for the service?
On the face of it, it would seem to suggest that without root and branch reform of the 43 force model and service delivery, the cuts will decimate numbers and threaten the safety of UK citizens.
On the back of this we have seen falls in crime itself, including violent crime.
Is it a case of modernisation or bust?
I got the impression from him that things were looking very bleak and that his department was going to be reduced further which is a concern.
Perhaps when the finances of the country are in a better condition spending will increase in the force.
williamp said:
if it means an end to the corruption, lies, peado cover-ups, chasing the wrong criminals, etc then I welcome it
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
Please back up your claims with more than just a link to 'The Spectator'. Which by the way, I've never heard of. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
Sadly, I predict this thread will be hijacked by the usual suspects who seem to take delight in the destruction of the Police. They will continue to claim 'Crime is down', ignoring the rise in violence against the person (up 21%), Public order (up 14%), Sexual offences (up 32%), Fraud(up 9%)
The statistics do not take into account summary only offences dealt with solely by a Magistrates court. They also ignore the other things that take up 80% of Police time. The massive mental health demand (getting worse as those services are cut), missing persons, child welfare (massive rise in demand as Social Services give up due to their own budget cuts), RTCs, demonstrations, extreme weather, road closures, and more. All done with a shift that is one third the size it was five years ago.
Our vehicles have 200k miles because there's no money to replace them as often. None of the ANPR kit in them works because it's so old and there's no money to replace it. We can't even get replacement uniform. One transferee from another Force continues to wear his old uniform with his old Force badges on it because they don't have anything to give him.
We've lost nearly 20000 Officers. The Tories have confirmed that they plan to cut another 20000 in the next two years (with another 19000 support staff). Theresa May was openly talking about her aim of a Police Force of 80000 (before all reference to it was removed before the election). That's a loss of nearly 60000 Officers in total. My Force has had to close 32 Stations, with the loss of corresponding custody suites. We now have to travel many miles to book a prisoner in. We have to queue to book them in. More loss of time and visibility. The loss of those 32 stations, means the loss of 32 front counters where the public could come in and report incidents or just get reassurance.
When Police Officers condemn these cuts, you'll note that most make no mention of the attacks on their terms and conditions. They are fighting to protect the service they provide to the public. The only reason it's still running now is because they bust a gut keeping the wheel on, with nothing but vilification and criticism from an odious Home Secretary, who does nothing but lie through her teeth,
There's no doubt that compulsory redundancy is on the way for many a Police Officer. The ability to provide anything other than Fire brigade Policing will become nothing but a distant memory.
The statistics do not take into account summary only offences dealt with solely by a Magistrates court. They also ignore the other things that take up 80% of Police time. The massive mental health demand (getting worse as those services are cut), missing persons, child welfare (massive rise in demand as Social Services give up due to their own budget cuts), RTCs, demonstrations, extreme weather, road closures, and more. All done with a shift that is one third the size it was five years ago.
Our vehicles have 200k miles because there's no money to replace them as often. None of the ANPR kit in them works because it's so old and there's no money to replace it. We can't even get replacement uniform. One transferee from another Force continues to wear his old uniform with his old Force badges on it because they don't have anything to give him.
We've lost nearly 20000 Officers. The Tories have confirmed that they plan to cut another 20000 in the next two years (with another 19000 support staff). Theresa May was openly talking about her aim of a Police Force of 80000 (before all reference to it was removed before the election). That's a loss of nearly 60000 Officers in total. My Force has had to close 32 Stations, with the loss of corresponding custody suites. We now have to travel many miles to book a prisoner in. We have to queue to book them in. More loss of time and visibility. The loss of those 32 stations, means the loss of 32 front counters where the public could come in and report incidents or just get reassurance.
When Police Officers condemn these cuts, you'll note that most make no mention of the attacks on their terms and conditions. They are fighting to protect the service they provide to the public. The only reason it's still running now is because they bust a gut keeping the wheel on, with nothing but vilification and criticism from an odious Home Secretary, who does nothing but lie through her teeth,
There's no doubt that compulsory redundancy is on the way for many a Police Officer. The ability to provide anything other than Fire brigade Policing will become nothing but a distant memory.
Edited by Elroy Blue on Friday 8th May 09:34
I live in one of the most deprived inner city areas of Nottingham. Crime has been rife for many years, a lot of crime does not get reported because the people know nothing ever gets done about it.
Our local police station is now closed to the public, resources are needed elsewhere they say !
Our local police station is now closed to the public, resources are needed elsewhere they say !
HantsRat said:
williamp said:
if it means an end to the corruption, lies, peado cover-ups, chasing the wrong criminals, etc then I welcome it
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
Please back up your claims with more than just a link to 'The Spectator'. Which by the way, I've never heard of. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/16/pol...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/06/ple...
You have heard of thd guarduan, i take it??
williamp said:
Its not my fault you are not very well-read. but here are some other links. All from the leftie Guardian for you..
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/16/pol...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/06/ple...
You have heard of thd guarduan, i take it??
You just singled out a story about 1 team within 1 police force and a single officer out of 127,909 police officers in the uk. This is 0.0007818058150716525%http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/16/pol...
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/06/ple...
You have heard of thd guarduan, i take it??
williamp said:
if it means an end to the corruption, lies, peado cover-ups, chasing the wrong criminals, etc then I welcome it
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
Just read this link. It states 40 officers/staff were suspended over corruption in the met in the last year. The met employs 75100 officers/staff so 40 suspended for corruption is just 0.05326%. I would hardly say that is a major problem! You are always going to get bad eggs in any work environment. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9461322/the-sh...
Meh.
No one outside the police has really noticed police budget cuts. The only involvement the general public has with the police is their participation in safety camera partnerships which, like it or not, is a continuing PR nightmare.
If it really is about to result in anarchy everywhere (more than unlikely), or the deficit is dealt with, then the budget will go back up if and when policing becomes an issue. In the meantime, they'll be expected to work to whatever extent they can with less money, much as everyone else is.
No one outside the police has really noticed police budget cuts. The only involvement the general public has with the police is their participation in safety camera partnerships which, like it or not, is a continuing PR nightmare.
If it really is about to result in anarchy everywhere (more than unlikely), or the deficit is dealt with, then the budget will go back up if and when policing becomes an issue. In the meantime, they'll be expected to work to whatever extent they can with less money, much as everyone else is.
This attack on the police is ideological and there can be no doubt that much will be privatised.
I remember looking up the number of police officers in France during the criticism on here of the police response to the riots. I forget the actual figures, but they had about 50% more with the cost differential obviously much more but the figures were impossible to obtain. Germany, for particular reasons, is not strictly comparable on figures in the way they are set up, but even if we take the lowest figure, they still had about 20% more officers and much, much more is spent on them. One force had three helicopters in the 1990s. My force shares one with two other forces.
Crime figures are dropping all over the western world, the reasons for this being in dispute. Let's look at where there is a considerable degree of agreement:
1/ More sophisticated anti-theft devices on vehicles has helped no end,
2/ Monitored CCTV = a drop in crime (which might well be proved as police shed those who monitor cameras, so crime should increase),
3/ The way figures are gathered. If we look at a riot, the actual number of crimes committed are tremendous but they are not counted as such. I know your house has been burned down and that your kids were inside, but that was the only arson reported that day.
4/ Demographics is another, possibly main reason, with figures for young, unattached males dropping to an all time low across the western world.
5/ What everyone agrees on is that policing has an effect. Where you have a well motivated and effective police force you have lower crime.
The police in England/Wales lost >20,000 officers from 2011 to March 2013, and since then the annual loss has increased. Official figures are in dispute (there is an election so can't go round telling the public what is actually happening) but it seems clear that the actual figure since Cameron wielded the scissors is much more than 20% overall. Some suggest 25%, and perhaps 50% of response. Some forces were taking up to a third longer to respond to emergency calls in 2012, and this will increase as numbers drop.
The EU (I think) recommendation for the absolute minimum of police officers for the safety of the population, looked at as officers per 100,000 is around 225. The England/Welsh forces have already dropped below this figure. The new tory government, or at least Cameron, will take another 20%+ away, leaving England/Wales with about 175.
You can't police this country with such figures. Even on a day to day basis the police can't respond effectively at the moment.
Does anyone think that riots are over? That mass strikes will not longer occur? That the public will abandon it historical methods of response and just sit there, obeying the law?
Not only that, the reason that corruption was rampant in the service in the 60s, 70s and early 80s was due to no checks, no supervision. How often do you think a sergeant gets out and performs some sort of supervisory function nowadays.
My force used to have a requirement for an inspector on each division, available for response, 365 and 24 hours.
Take a guess at how many sergeants there are on at 4am.
We, or at least Cameron, is sowing the wind.
EDITED TO ADD:
I can't find the EU recommendation for police per 100,000, but there is a UN one of 222, which we are lower than already.
Germany = 296 (but more in fact as they exclude some people we include),
France = 356
Spain = 533 (not strictly comparable as the police have other functions, I'm told),
Italy = 465
Portugal = 437
Scotland = 326
Greece = 491 (not strictly comparable)
USA = 401
I remember looking up the number of police officers in France during the criticism on here of the police response to the riots. I forget the actual figures, but they had about 50% more with the cost differential obviously much more but the figures were impossible to obtain. Germany, for particular reasons, is not strictly comparable on figures in the way they are set up, but even if we take the lowest figure, they still had about 20% more officers and much, much more is spent on them. One force had three helicopters in the 1990s. My force shares one with two other forces.
Crime figures are dropping all over the western world, the reasons for this being in dispute. Let's look at where there is a considerable degree of agreement:
1/ More sophisticated anti-theft devices on vehicles has helped no end,
2/ Monitored CCTV = a drop in crime (which might well be proved as police shed those who monitor cameras, so crime should increase),
3/ The way figures are gathered. If we look at a riot, the actual number of crimes committed are tremendous but they are not counted as such. I know your house has been burned down and that your kids were inside, but that was the only arson reported that day.
4/ Demographics is another, possibly main reason, with figures for young, unattached males dropping to an all time low across the western world.
5/ What everyone agrees on is that policing has an effect. Where you have a well motivated and effective police force you have lower crime.
The police in England/Wales lost >20,000 officers from 2011 to March 2013, and since then the annual loss has increased. Official figures are in dispute (there is an election so can't go round telling the public what is actually happening) but it seems clear that the actual figure since Cameron wielded the scissors is much more than 20% overall. Some suggest 25%, and perhaps 50% of response. Some forces were taking up to a third longer to respond to emergency calls in 2012, and this will increase as numbers drop.
The EU (I think) recommendation for the absolute minimum of police officers for the safety of the population, looked at as officers per 100,000 is around 225. The England/Welsh forces have already dropped below this figure. The new tory government, or at least Cameron, will take another 20%+ away, leaving England/Wales with about 175.
You can't police this country with such figures. Even on a day to day basis the police can't respond effectively at the moment.
Does anyone think that riots are over? That mass strikes will not longer occur? That the public will abandon it historical methods of response and just sit there, obeying the law?
Not only that, the reason that corruption was rampant in the service in the 60s, 70s and early 80s was due to no checks, no supervision. How often do you think a sergeant gets out and performs some sort of supervisory function nowadays.
My force used to have a requirement for an inspector on each division, available for response, 365 and 24 hours.
Take a guess at how many sergeants there are on at 4am.
We, or at least Cameron, is sowing the wind.
EDITED TO ADD:
I can't find the EU recommendation for police per 100,000, but there is a UN one of 222, which we are lower than already.
Germany = 296 (but more in fact as they exclude some people we include),
France = 356
Spain = 533 (not strictly comparable as the police have other functions, I'm told),
Italy = 465
Portugal = 437
Scotland = 326
Greece = 491 (not strictly comparable)
USA = 401
Edited by Derek Smith on Friday 8th May 10:37
gus607 said:
I live in one of the most deprived inner city areas of Nottingham. Crime has been rife for many years, a lot of crime does not get reported because the people know nothing ever gets done about it.
Our local police station is now closed to the public, resources are needed elsewhere they say !
front counters are high cost for low reward Our local police station is now closed to the public, resources are needed elsewhere they say !
the death of the HO/RT1 has made them even more superfluous
other things which impact on police needs are the removal of police from none core business - in favour of different ways of working ...
Edited by mph1977 on Friday 8th May 10:31
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