Misrepresentation by private car seller
Discussion
Bought a car off Ebay recently. Advertised as having climate control amongst a whole host of other things.
To be precise, I bought it after the Ebay auction had ended, and the car didn't make its reserve price, only getting to about what both I and the bidders agreed it was worth.
Vendor contacted me the following day and offered to sell it to me for 25% less than the reserve to shift it.
I went to have a look at the car, with a view to buying it.
I didn't test everything while buying it, but asked the guy to be honest and tell me if anything wasn't working.
He said everything was working.
Bought the car, drove it home, realised that while the aircon was trying to work, it wasn't cooling the air.
Phoned him as soon as I got home, asked if he knew it wasn't working, he said no, he didn't know, but he hadn't been using the aircon over the winter. We agreed it probably needed a re-gas.
Cut long story short, the aircon pump/compressor was knackered (a technical engineering term I believe, used by the Saab specialist who looked at it), and to get around the noise it was making, the owner had fitted a shorter auxiliary belt, completely bypassing the pump.
Replacement pump sourced by me off Ebay, fitted by Saab expert, plus new longer aux belt. Total cost just over £400.
Do I have a case against the the lying vendor, or does the oft quoted rule of "buyer beware" apply as usual?
To be precise, I bought it after the Ebay auction had ended, and the car didn't make its reserve price, only getting to about what both I and the bidders agreed it was worth.
Vendor contacted me the following day and offered to sell it to me for 25% less than the reserve to shift it.
I went to have a look at the car, with a view to buying it.
I didn't test everything while buying it, but asked the guy to be honest and tell me if anything wasn't working.
He said everything was working.
Bought the car, drove it home, realised that while the aircon was trying to work, it wasn't cooling the air.
Phoned him as soon as I got home, asked if he knew it wasn't working, he said no, he didn't know, but he hadn't been using the aircon over the winter. We agreed it probably needed a re-gas.
Cut long story short, the aircon pump/compressor was knackered (a technical engineering term I believe, used by the Saab specialist who looked at it), and to get around the noise it was making, the owner had fitted a shorter auxiliary belt, completely bypassing the pump.
Replacement pump sourced by me off Ebay, fitted by Saab expert, plus new longer aux belt. Total cost just over £400.
Do I have a case against the the lying vendor, or does the oft quoted rule of "buyer beware" apply as usual?
QBee said:
Replacement pump sourced by me off Ebay, fitted by Saab expert, plus new longer aux belt. Total cost just over £400.
That's a bit of a result - could have been much worse. And you've made friends with a Saab indie - that'll be useful.QBee said:
Do I have a case against the the lying vendor, or does the oft quoted rule of "buyer beware" apply as usual?
Did he look like he had a few bob? You could send him a strongly worded letter. You could even sue him using MoneyClaimonLine. But it's only worth doing if he's likely to pay.QBee said:
Phoned him as soon as I got home, asked if he knew it wasn't working, he said no, he didn't know, but he hadn't been using the aircon over the winter.
Do I have a case against the the lying vendor, or does the oft quoted rule of "buyer beware" apply as usual?
Do you know he lied? How long had he owned it? Perhaps he bought it with the pump already bypassed?Do I have a case against the the lying vendor, or does the oft quoted rule of "buyer beware" apply as usual?
What exactly did the advert say?
What exactly did you ask him?
Both can be considered as part of the contract, although the later hard to prove.
"Everything works" sounds weak and unbounded to me to expect much follow-up. I think there is an implication that the question is "that you are aware of".
He will argue that he isn't responsible to check everything and that he was unaware of the issue. You say he lied - can you prove he knew there was a fault.
How much did you pay. Even from a dealer, I think you would have problems unless the car is newish and expensive.
edit - oo I missed the bypass - interesting. How long did the previous owner have the car - was it definitely him?
What exactly did you ask him?
Both can be considered as part of the contract, although the later hard to prove.
"Everything works" sounds weak and unbounded to me to expect much follow-up. I think there is an implication that the question is "that you are aware of".
He will argue that he isn't responsible to check everything and that he was unaware of the issue. You say he lied - can you prove he knew there was a fault.
How much did you pay. Even from a dealer, I think you would have problems unless the car is newish and expensive.
edit - oo I missed the bypass - interesting. How long did the previous owner have the car - was it definitely him?
Edited by balls-out on Monday 8th June 17:40
TooMany2cvs said:
Do you know he lied? How long had he owned it? Perhaps he bought it with the pump already bypassed?
Would be interesting to know that.If he's had it a while, then, as civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities, you'd have to think that he probably knew.
I have to say that if you can't spot things as blatant as a bypassed compressor, then that's going to make buying from eBay sellers even more dicey than it already is!
Edited by Sheepshanks on Monday 8th June 17:35
Sheepshanks said:
Would be interesting to know that.
If he's had it a while, then, as civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities, you'd have to think that he probably knew.
I have to say that if you can't spot things as blatant as a bypassed compressor, then that's going to make buying from eBay sellers even more dicey than it already is!
If I'm honest I wouldn't even be able to point at the compressor let alone what a bypassed one looks like. I enjoy driving cars but know fIf he's had it a while, then, as civil cases are decided on the balance of probabilities, you'd have to think that he probably knew.
I have to say that if you can't spot things as blatant as a bypassed compressor, then that's going to make buying from eBay sellers even more dicey than it already is!
Edited by Sheepshanks on Monday 8th June 17:35
k all about what's under the bonnet other than where I put fluids in. (And I managed to kill an MX5 of all things when I first started driving 5 years ago by not putting any oil in).Of course, I wouldn't buy a car privately or from a small garage without a mechanic and the OPs situation reinforces that greatly.
balls-out said:
What exactly did the advert say?
What exactly did you ask him?
Both can be considered as part of the contract, although the later hard to prove.
"Everything works" sounds weak and unbounded to me to expect much follow-up. I think there is an implication that the question is "that you are aware of".
He will argue that he isn't responsible to check everything and that he was unaware of the issue. You say he lied - can you prove he knew there was a fault.
How much did you pay. Even from a dealer, I think you would have problems unless the car is newish and expensive.
edit - oo I missed the bypass - interesting. How long did the previous owner have the car - was it definitely him?
He had owned it for 18 months, 8000 miles, and through a long hot summer (last year). I cannot be 100% sure that he had had the aircon pump bypassed himself, but he must have been aware that it wasn't working. I can see from the service book that the servicing was done by a garage local to him for at least two years before he bought the car, so I will give them a call and see if they have anything to add.What exactly did you ask him?
Both can be considered as part of the contract, although the later hard to prove.
"Everything works" sounds weak and unbounded to me to expect much follow-up. I think there is an implication that the question is "that you are aware of".
He will argue that he isn't responsible to check everything and that he was unaware of the issue. You say he lied - can you prove he knew there was a fault.
How much did you pay. Even from a dealer, I think you would have problems unless the car is newish and expensive.
edit - oo I missed the bypass - interesting. How long did the previous owner have the car - was it definitely him?
Edited by balls-out on Monday 8th June 17:40
I paid £1500 for the car, a 120000 mile 2006 Saab 9-5 Aero estate. I expected to have to change the front brakes and fit new tyres, I had noticed they needed doing and they are safety matters. I also changed the oil and filter while it was up on the ramp having the brakes done, as I prefer to run a 260 bhp Turbo Saab on decent fully synthetic oil, not whatever multigrade the local garage servicing it buys in bulk for £1.25 a litre and puts into every car they service.
The brakes were the only thing that came out of a thorough safety check I had done on the car a couple of days after I bought it, so in a sense I have got away lightly.....
So the car cost me £2,200 with those things done, £2600 with the aircon done as well, and is 14,000 miles from its next service and 6 months from its next MOT, though I am confident it would pass tomorrow if asked.
I fully appreciate that it is one of those things that can happen, that I bought it for close to shed money, and perhaps I should have checked more carefully before buying the car. It just narks me that used cars seem to generate a culture of lies and deceit from people who wouldn't dream of shop-lifting. So I wondered how I would stand if I took him to court?
I think your comments, gentlemen, tend to suggest that the law will look to me to prove my case, and I cannot prove what was in the mind of an ignorant, lying, Yorkshire git, so it's not worth proceeding. Thanks everyone for your input.
QBee said:
I paid £1500 for the car, a 120000 mile 2006 Saab 9-5 Aero estate.
Even if it'd been from the trade, with SOGA rights, you'd be struggling to prove that non-functional aircon made a 9yo, 120k £1500 car not fit for purpose.The ad said "climate control". Does that work? Does it adjust fans & flaps to (try to) maintain a set temperature?
PS, I do know the basic layout of petrol engine, but doubt I would have spotted that they had bypassed the compressor on a Saab 9-5, it's tucked away in an inaccessible position under the front of the car.
I changed the auxiliary belt on another car myself last year, and the alternator as well, but they were easy to see and access on that car, despite being a big V8.
I checked and listened to everything I could, but missed the aircon.
I will just be satisfied that, as far as i can tell, the expensive bits are in good order, and the car is smart and tidy and supremely comfortable for my 25,000 miles a year. It is my current business car policy, to buy smart but cheap so my clients get the right impression and my depreciation costs, normally the biggest single cost of car ownership, remain low.
To finish off, and thanks for your input, here's what we have been talking about:
And my wife's true shed (as defined by PH), a bargain at 96,000 miles and £875. One drive belt replaced to date.
I changed the auxiliary belt on another car myself last year, and the alternator as well, but they were easy to see and access on that car, despite being a big V8.
I checked and listened to everything I could, but missed the aircon.
I will just be satisfied that, as far as i can tell, the expensive bits are in good order, and the car is smart and tidy and supremely comfortable for my 25,000 miles a year. It is my current business car policy, to buy smart but cheap so my clients get the right impression and my depreciation costs, normally the biggest single cost of car ownership, remain low.
To finish off, and thanks for your input, here's what we have been talking about:
And my wife's true shed (as defined by PH), a bargain at 96,000 miles and £875. One drive belt replaced to date.
TooMany2cvs said:
Even if it'd been from the trade, with SOGA rights, you'd be struggling to prove that non-functional aircon made a 9yo, 120k £1500 car not fit for purpose.
The ad said "climate control". Does that work? Does it adjust fans & flaps to (try to) maintain a set temperature?
It tried to.....just didn't succeed. The electronics of the system were perfect, and indeed now are able to do their job. I had that checked before I replaced the compressor and belt.The ad said "climate control". Does that work? Does it adjust fans & flaps to (try to) maintain a set temperature?
I agree, and if he had just said "I don't know" I would have put it down to experience and moved on. It's the lying that I find harder to stomach. He must have known.
QBee said:
I think your comments, gentlemen, tend to suggest that the law will look to me to prove my case, and I cannot prove what was in the mind of an ignorant, lying, Yorkshire git, so it's not worth proceeding. Thanks everyone for your input.
I don't think proving it would be a big issue, but a court could decide that, for £1500, what do you expect?Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff