Experiances of careless driving conviction?
Discussion
I'm just trying to garner some ideas/thoughts from those who have been prosecuted for careless driving.
I've pleaded to careless and am awaiting sentence.
Im curious as to what and how people have been punished, and more crucially, how this has effected their insurance premiums aswell.
I've looked at the sentencing guidelines, and these all seem a bit vague to be honest and im sure it varies from case to case which is why im after personal experiences.
Has anyone ever been banned from a careless (other than totting up?)
I've pleaded to careless and am awaiting sentence.
Im curious as to what and how people have been punished, and more crucially, how this has effected their insurance premiums aswell.
I've looked at the sentencing guidelines, and these all seem a bit vague to be honest and im sure it varies from case to case which is why im after personal experiences.
Has anyone ever been banned from a careless (other than totting up?)
Edited by un1corn on Tuesday 9th June 21:02
If you're awaiting a sentence, I'm assuming you've done something a bit more serious than an undertake (CD30, dealt with via FPN) but here's my experience with a careless driving conviction anyway.
Coming off of a roundabout onto a dual carriageway, I passed a very slow moving Honda (15mph in a 30) on the left. Yes it was an "undertake" but there was no other traffic around, clear road, I didn't "cut him up" or anything when I joined the right hand lane 300 yards ahead of him. I suspect the police thought it was a "boy racer" due to me driving a bright yellow MG!
I received an FPN, 3 points and £100 donation to the doughnut fund. Insurance went up a couple of hundred, however a year on and if I run an insurance quote with and without the points, there's only a £75 or so difference.
The real issue that it's causing me, is a CD30 is seen as a major offence to van hire companies, and as such I cannot rent a van now for 5 years. Some independent rental places will rent you a tiny van (i.e fiesta van) but nowhere I've tried will rent anything transit sized to you. If you need to rent a van at any point, this will affect you significantly for that.
Coming off of a roundabout onto a dual carriageway, I passed a very slow moving Honda (15mph in a 30) on the left. Yes it was an "undertake" but there was no other traffic around, clear road, I didn't "cut him up" or anything when I joined the right hand lane 300 yards ahead of him. I suspect the police thought it was a "boy racer" due to me driving a bright yellow MG!
I received an FPN, 3 points and £100 donation to the doughnut fund. Insurance went up a couple of hundred, however a year on and if I run an insurance quote with and without the points, there's only a £75 or so difference.
The real issue that it's causing me, is a CD30 is seen as a major offence to van hire companies, and as such I cannot rent a van now for 5 years. Some independent rental places will rent you a tiny van (i.e fiesta van) but nowhere I've tried will rent anything transit sized to you. If you need to rent a van at any point, this will affect you significantly for that.
alexnessie said:
... I suspect the police thought it was a "boy racer" due to me driving a bright yellow MG!
I received an FPN, 3 points and £100 donation...
Just out of interest, was it a traffic officer or a police response driver in a panda car that stopped you? I received an FPN, 3 points and £100 donation...
The reason I ask is that a response driver may not necessarily be able to properly assess careless driving in a legal sense and you may have had grounds for appealing/refusing the FPN, whereas if it was a traffic officer then you're probably done for.
Just interested.
Well most people that drive vans are maniacs to start with so I can see their point on that one. I also thought either an overtake or an undertake involved pulling out, doing the deed and pulling back in, if you stayed in the same lane throughout then how is it an undertake, you were just going more quickly than someone in another lane. Maybe they should have pulled the other driver for due care, or more precisely a lack of.
stuart313 said:
Well most people that drive vans are maniacs to start with so I can see their point on that one. I also thought either an overtake or an undertake involved pulling out, doing the deed and pulling back in, if you stayed in the same lane throughout then how is it an undertake, you were just going more quickly than someone in another lane. Maybe they should have pulled the other driver for due care, or more precisely a lack of.
It is true that, in general, one is allowed to remain in the nearside lane and, within the speed limit, overtake a slower car in the offside lane, but it does depend on context. Hence there is no ban on "undertaking", but there are sanctions related to poor decisions.Having just come off the RAB, possibly as the result of a late decision to take that exit, potentially the "15 in a 30" driver was about to return to the nearside lane.
In the circumstances, it would have been more prudent to join the offside lane behind the slower driver until that driver established his or her intentions unambiguously.
alexnessie said:
If you're awaiting a sentence, I'm assuming you've done something a bit more serious than an undertake (CD30, dealt with via FPN) but here's my experience with a careless driving conviction anyway.
Coming off of a roundabout onto a dual carriageway, I passed a very slow moving Honda (15mph in a 30) on the left. Yes it was an "undertake" but there was no other traffic around, clear road, I didn't "cut him up" or anything when I joined the right hand lane 300 yards ahead of him. I suspect the police thought it was a "boy racer" due to me driving a bright yellow MG!
I received an FPN, 3 points and £100 donation to the doughnut fund. Insurance went up a couple of hundred, however a year on and if I run an insurance quote with and without the points, there's only a £75 or so difference.
The real issue that it's causing me, is a CD30 is seen as a major offence to van hire companies, and as such I cannot rent a van now for 5 years. Some independent rental places will rent you a tiny van (i.e fiesta van) but nowhere I've tried will rent anything transit sized to you. If you need to rent a van at any point, this will affect you significantly for that.
Enterprise will happily rent you a car, van, or anything else.Coming off of a roundabout onto a dual carriageway, I passed a very slow moving Honda (15mph in a 30) on the left. Yes it was an "undertake" but there was no other traffic around, clear road, I didn't "cut him up" or anything when I joined the right hand lane 300 yards ahead of him. I suspect the police thought it was a "boy racer" due to me driving a bright yellow MG!
I received an FPN, 3 points and £100 donation to the doughnut fund. Insurance went up a couple of hundred, however a year on and if I run an insurance quote with and without the points, there's only a £75 or so difference.
The real issue that it's causing me, is a CD30 is seen as a major offence to van hire companies, and as such I cannot rent a van now for 5 years. Some independent rental places will rent you a tiny van (i.e fiesta van) but nowhere I've tried will rent anything transit sized to you. If you need to rent a van at any point, this will affect you significantly for that.
Had a dangerous driving charge bumped down to driving without due care. Was six points and grand fine. Went to crown court - my choice, penalties are more extreme than magistrates. Was back dated two years to date of accident. This is going back circa 15 years.
Mine was overtaking on a stretch of road and car coming the other way at 0630am on a bright summers day, ended up in a head on, road was not a solid white line - just ill advised to overtake on it. I'll spare the details, but i could not get back in again due to car blocking my overtake/emergency braking.
I would of been banned under totting up, but due to the time it took them to go through the system and courts previous points had expired and i was on 0 points when i took the six points for only a year. The court administrator pointed it out but they could not do anything about it - the points had expired.
I was on company car insurance so did not affect me. Unable to comment on this sorry.
Overall i consider myself very lucky. I was a bit of a t
t back then with my driving.
Good luck OP.
Mine was overtaking on a stretch of road and car coming the other way at 0630am on a bright summers day, ended up in a head on, road was not a solid white line - just ill advised to overtake on it. I'll spare the details, but i could not get back in again due to car blocking my overtake/emergency braking.
I would of been banned under totting up, but due to the time it took them to go through the system and courts previous points had expired and i was on 0 points when i took the six points for only a year. The court administrator pointed it out but they could not do anything about it - the points had expired.
I was on company car insurance so did not affect me. Unable to comment on this sorry.
Overall i consider myself very lucky. I was a bit of a t
t back then with my driving.Good luck OP.
Edited by BobSaunders on Tuesday 9th June 22:49
johnao said:
Just out of interest, was it a traffic officer or a police response driver in a panda car that stopped you?
The reason I ask is that a response driver may not necessarily be able to properly assess careless driving in a legal sense and you may have had grounds for appealing/refusing the FPN, whereas if it was a traffic officer then you're probably done for.
Just interested.
It was the ARV unit (Armed Response Vehicle), so as far as I know they wouldn't be trafpol?The reason I ask is that a response driver may not necessarily be able to properly assess careless driving in a legal sense and you may have had grounds for appealing/refusing the FPN, whereas if it was a traffic officer then you're probably done for.
Just interested.
ferrariF50lover said:
Enterprise will happily rent you a car, van, or anything else.
Ta, didn't know that! Europcar said they would but it was an eyewatering amount compared to the local indies and Arnold Clark.flemke said:
It is true that, in general, one is allowed to remain in the nearside lane and, within the speed limit, overtake a slower car in the offside lane, but it does depend on context. Hence there is no ban on "undertaking", but there are sanctions related to poor decisions.
Having just come off the RAB, possibly as the result of a late decision to take that exit, potentially the "15 in a 30" driver was about to return to the nearside lane.
In the circumstances, it would have been more prudent to join the offside lane behind the slower driver until that driver established his or her intentions unambiguously.
I probably should have clarified, this was dual carriageway - roundabout - dual carriageway, with both roundabout lanes marked for straight on use. I approached in the left lane, stayed in the left lane, exited in the left, and "undertook" the slow driver in the left lane, pulled into the right lane 300+ yard ahead.Having just come off the RAB, possibly as the result of a late decision to take that exit, potentially the "15 in a 30" driver was about to return to the nearside lane.
In the circumstances, it would have been more prudent to join the offside lane behind the slower driver until that driver established his or her intentions unambiguously.
Sorry for not stating positions etc in my post, I can see how it could have read differently without it.
Edited by alexnessie on Wednesday 10th June 04:07
Wouldn't put any faith in the 'It wasn't a traffic policeman' as a defence or as some sort of mitigation.
The officer will say what he saw.
If you have pleaded NG the court will make their minds up as to whether they agree with him or with you.
You won't find any traffic policemen sitting as magistrates & I doubt you'll find many magistrates or judges that have done any driving courses beyond the basic test we all took. Suspect there will be the odd one of two that don't even drive. So the bench aren't going to have any 'specialist driving skills' either.
ETA FWIW in my own force all regular ARV crew had to be advanced drivers.
The officer will say what he saw.
If you have pleaded NG the court will make their minds up as to whether they agree with him or with you.
You won't find any traffic policemen sitting as magistrates & I doubt you'll find many magistrates or judges that have done any driving courses beyond the basic test we all took. Suspect there will be the odd one of two that don't even drive. So the bench aren't going to have any 'specialist driving skills' either.
ETA FWIW in my own force all regular ARV crew had to be advanced drivers.
Edited by paintman on Wednesday 10th June 08:33
johnao said:
Just out of interest, was it a traffic officer or a police response driver in a panda car that stopped you?
The reason I ask is that a response driver may not necessarily be able to properly assess careless driving in a legal sense and you may have had grounds for appealing/refusing the FPN, whereas if it was a traffic officer then you're probably done for.
Just interested.
Ignore this advice! Utter tosh.The reason I ask is that a response driver may not necessarily be able to properly assess careless driving in a legal sense and you may have had grounds for appealing/refusing the FPN, whereas if it was a traffic officer then you're probably done for.
Just interested.
alexnessie said:
flemke said:
It is true that, in general, one is allowed to remain in the nearside lane and, within the speed limit, overtake a slower car in the offside lane, but it does depend on context. Hence there is no ban on "undertaking", but there are sanctions related to poor decisions.
Having just come off the RAB, possibly as the result of a late decision to take that exit, potentially the "15 in a 30" driver was about to return to the nearside lane.
In the circumstances, it would have been more prudent to join the offside lane behind the slower driver until that driver established his or her intentions unambiguously.
I probably should have clarified, this was dual carriageway - roundabout - dual carriageway, with both roundabout lanes marked for straight on use. I approached in the left lane, stayed in the left lane, exited in the left, and "undertook" the slow driver in the left lane, pulled into the right lane 300+ yard ahead.Having just come off the RAB, possibly as the result of a late decision to take that exit, potentially the "15 in a 30" driver was about to return to the nearside lane.
In the circumstances, it would have been more prudent to join the offside lane behind the slower driver until that driver established his or her intentions unambiguously.
Sorry for not stating positions etc in my post, I can see how it could have read differently without it.
Unless the way that you did it was pretty flagrant, however, it would seem that a word of caution would have been more appropriate than a penalty.
AB said:
March 2004 I was banned for 18 months and given a large fine for DWDCA.
Insurance was horrendous when I got my license back, then still only 19 IIRC (no re-test which I thought was strange).
Effects on insurance in my case must surely be exaggerated due to my age.
must have been. i had a cd 30 (initial charge was dangerous) on the bike along with 9 points and my insurance was 20 quid cheaper the next year .Insurance was horrendous when I got my license back, then still only 19 IIRC (no re-test which I thought was strange).
Effects on insurance in my case must surely be exaggerated due to my age.
Genuinely don't think the OP broke any rules. It was not an undertake in the sense I understand the term - he simply stayed in his lane and passed slower traffic in the other lane.
If he had pulled into the right hand lane to wait and nothing happened, then what? He can't move back to the left and pass because that is an undertake. He can't flash the driver in front because that is aggressive (according to some policemen, although I think that's nonsense).
If you cannot pass on the left, a single car becomes a two lane road block in these circumstances. I have even seen a single car having this effect across 4 lanes of a motorway - most people not prepared to pass the idiot pootling along in L4 so everyone slows down to 60mph across all 4 lanes!
If he had pulled into the right hand lane to wait and nothing happened, then what? He can't move back to the left and pass because that is an undertake. He can't flash the driver in front because that is aggressive (according to some policemen, although I think that's nonsense).
If you cannot pass on the left, a single car becomes a two lane road block in these circumstances. I have even seen a single car having this effect across 4 lanes of a motorway - most people not prepared to pass the idiot pootling along in L4 so everyone slows down to 60mph across all 4 lanes!
ORD said:
Genuinely don't think the OP broke any rules. It was not an undertake in the sense I understand the term - he simply stayed in his lane and passed slower traffic in the other lane.
If he had pulled into the right hand lane to wait and nothing happened, then what? He can't move back to the left and pass because that is an undertake. He can't flash the driver in front because that is aggressive (according to some policemen, although I think that's nonsense).
If you cannot pass on the left, a single car becomes a two lane road block in these circumstances. I have even seen a single car having this effect across 4 lanes of a motorway - most people not prepared to pass the idiot pootling along in L4 so everyone slows down to 60mph across all 4 lanes!
There is no law against "undertaking" per se. There are obviously laws against careless, dangerous, etc. If the undertake breaches one of those laws, there may be a sanction, but there could not be one simply because an undertake happened.If he had pulled into the right hand lane to wait and nothing happened, then what? He can't move back to the left and pass because that is an undertake. He can't flash the driver in front because that is aggressive (according to some policemen, although I think that's nonsense).
If you cannot pass on the left, a single car becomes a two lane road block in these circumstances. I have even seen a single car having this effect across 4 lanes of a motorway - most people not prepared to pass the idiot pootling along in L4 so everyone slows down to 60mph across all 4 lanes!
In these "open road" scenarios, when the slow driver has no apparent reason to be traveling in the offside lane but is there anyhow, the following, faster driver has got to give the slower driver a proper chance to shift to the correct nearside lane. That has to have happened before the faster driver starts to consider any possibility of an undertake.
If after being approached from behind the slower driver has not responded, I think the first affirmative action for the faster driver to take is simply to put on the right indicator. I find that this works in 80-90% of these situations. Job done, no hassle, no harm, no-one takes offence, no-one is considered to have been aggressive.
If that fails to work, I think the next level would be a quick flash of one's headlamps. Less passive than the indicator, but still harmless and ambiguous. All one is really doing by that is alerting another road user to one's position.
If that doesn't work - which would be quite rare - then sometimes you have to suck it up and travel slowly behind the clueless driver ahead. Frustrating, but not the worst thing in the world.
The above applies to two lanes-per-side DCs. For three or more lanes-per-side, my own view and practice is that, if the out-of-lane driver is cruising anomalously in the far offside lane, and all the lanes inside him are completely clear, and assuming that there are no junctions in sight, in general I would look to undertake in the most nearside lane. These conditions would ensure that there was more than one full lane of empty space between the other car and mine. If the faster driver is focusing on the road position of the slower car whilst undertaking with more than a full lane of lateral buffer between them, it is almost impossible for the slower driver to swing across 2 lanes so quickly as to make contact with the faster car in the nearside lane.
From the Highway Code:
268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.
I have always wondered how this would work if you were bimbling along at the speed limit in lane 1 on a DC, and came across a plonker doing 45 in lane 2.
Would the act of slowing down to 45mph alongside them (as would be mandated by the no overtaking on the left rule) then constitute congestion since the DC was blocked by slow moving traffic, allowing a 45.2mph undertake?
268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.
I have always wondered how this would work if you were bimbling along at the speed limit in lane 1 on a DC, and came across a plonker doing 45 in lane 2.
Would the act of slowing down to 45mph alongside them (as would be mandated by the no overtaking on the left rule) then constitute congestion since the DC was blocked by slow moving traffic, allowing a 45.2mph undertake?
davepoth said:
From the Highway Code:
268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.
I have always wondered how this would work if you were bimbling along at the speed limit in lane 1 on a DC, and came across a plonker doing 45 in lane 2.
Would the act of slowing down to 45mph alongside them (as would be mandated by the no overtaking on the left rule) then constitute congestion since the DC was blocked by slow moving traffic, allowing a 45.2mph undertake?
The Highway Code is advisory, not statute. It will often allude to statute, with words such as "Must", and its advice may be used as evidence of good practice, but on its own a Highway Code statement, "Do not....", is not a law the violation of which would be an offence.268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.
I have always wondered how this would work if you were bimbling along at the speed limit in lane 1 on a DC, and came across a plonker doing 45 in lane 2.
Would the act of slowing down to 45mph alongside them (as would be mandated by the no overtaking on the left rule) then constitute congestion since the DC was blocked by slow moving traffic, allowing a 45.2mph undertake?
Ironically in your example, overtaking on the left at a speed differential of 0.2 mph would essentially maximise the time-exposed-to-danger for both vehicles.
IMO, if someone did exactly as you described, maximising TED whilst overtaking on the nearside after having made no attempt to position himself in the offside lane behind the 45mph car in the hope that the driver of the slower car would move into proper nearside lane, that faster driver would potentially be guilty of DWDCA/Careless.
I would expect any sensible traffic cop to approve of either (a) getting behind and telling the dimwit to move left (by indicating behind him, flash of headlights) or (b) passing quickly and safely on the left once it is clear that he ain't budging.
The idea that the overtaker commits an offence is baffling to me. It is the MLM that is creating an obstruction and some risk. I wonder how many MLMs have got points for DWDCA. About 3, I expect, yet they are responsible for a lot of the problems and, I guess, accidents on our motorways.
The idea that the overtaker commits an offence is baffling to me. It is the MLM that is creating an obstruction and some risk. I wonder how many MLMs have got points for DWDCA. About 3, I expect, yet they are responsible for a lot of the problems and, I guess, accidents on our motorways.
flemke said:
the following, faster driver has got to give the slower driver a proper chance to shift to the correct nearside lane. That has to have happened before the faster driver starts to consider any possibility of an undertake.
If after being approached from behind the slower driver has not responded, I think the first affirmative action for the faster driver to take is simply to put on the right indicator. I find that this works in 80-90% of these situations. Job done, no hassle, no harm, no-one takes offence, no-one is considered to have been aggressive.
If that fails to work, I think the next level would be a quick flash of one's headlamps. Less passive than the indicator, but still harmless and ambiguous. All one is really doing by that is alerting another road user to one's position.
If that doesn't work - which would be quite rare - then sometimes you have to suck it up and travel slowly behind the clueless driver ahead. Frustrating, but not the worst thing in the world.
I followed a car about 1/2 mile between two roundabouts sat in lane 2 doing 50 in a NSL. No traffic in lane 1. After negotiating the second roundabout they were established in lane 2 and obviously not going to move across, still no other traffic, no junctions in sight. I gave a quick flash of the headlights. The rear seat passenger turned around and gave me the finger. I don't want to be behind someone with that attitude, you don't know what they might do.If after being approached from behind the slower driver has not responded, I think the first affirmative action for the faster driver to take is simply to put on the right indicator. I find that this works in 80-90% of these situations. Job done, no hassle, no harm, no-one takes offence, no-one is considered to have been aggressive.
If that fails to work, I think the next level would be a quick flash of one's headlamps. Less passive than the indicator, but still harmless and ambiguous. All one is really doing by that is alerting another road user to one's position.
If that doesn't work - which would be quite rare - then sometimes you have to suck it up and travel slowly behind the clueless driver ahead. Frustrating, but not the worst thing in the world.
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