Advice for mis-sold property
Discussion
Good afternoon,
I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction or possibly to a decent lawyer who specialises in property.
I bought a new build property at the start of the year and to quickly sum up the issues,
1) it was advertised as being a passive house, but does not meet German passivhaus standards, so can it technically be advertised as a passive house? I can't see how it can because every developer would be calling their houses passive houses.
2) the heating system changed from electric radiators to a water to air heat exchanger tacked on to the mvhr ventilation system,
I get hot air blowing out into the bedroom closest to the exchanger but no heat in the bedroom at the end.
I do not find it an equal substitution for the electric radiators, however I did know about it before completing.
So far I have been to a solicitor and sent a letter of complaint, obviously the response was full of denials to the issues.
And that's where I am today, a little unsure what to do next,
Do I need a heating engineer to come out condemn the heating system?
Is there any institutions out there I should be contacting?
I'm in the Yorkshire area if anyone knows a decent property lawyer.
Thanks for any help.
I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction or possibly to a decent lawyer who specialises in property.
I bought a new build property at the start of the year and to quickly sum up the issues,
1) it was advertised as being a passive house, but does not meet German passivhaus standards, so can it technically be advertised as a passive house? I can't see how it can because every developer would be calling their houses passive houses.
2) the heating system changed from electric radiators to a water to air heat exchanger tacked on to the mvhr ventilation system,
I get hot air blowing out into the bedroom closest to the exchanger but no heat in the bedroom at the end.
I do not find it an equal substitution for the electric radiators, however I did know about it before completing.
So far I have been to a solicitor and sent a letter of complaint, obviously the response was full of denials to the issues.
And that's where I am today, a little unsure what to do next,
Do I need a heating engineer to come out condemn the heating system?
Is there any institutions out there I should be contacting?
I'm in the Yorkshire area if anyone knows a decent property lawyer.
Thanks for any help.
Edited by tactical lizard on Wednesday 12th August 18:56
I don't believe electric radiators throughout the house would meet passivhaus standards whereas the mvhr system you describe would.
A passivhaus should have extremely high levels of fabric efficiency and air tightness combined with normally a heated towel rail in the bathroom and mvhr.
Perhaps the building fell slightly short post construction and hence why a heat pump has been tacked on.
No offence but are you using the building correctly?
ETA
Have you been given a certificate and if so contact the overseeing body such as the BRE.
A passivhaus should have extremely high levels of fabric efficiency and air tightness combined with normally a heated towel rail in the bathroom and mvhr.
Perhaps the building fell slightly short post construction and hence why a heat pump has been tacked on.
No offence but are you using the building correctly?
ETA
Have you been given a certificate and if so contact the overseeing body such as the BRE.
Edited by barryrs on Wednesday 12th August 19:21
They were supposed to be low power electric radiators,
The system they have put in sends 50 degree heat to the first bedroom,
35 to the next and 16 to the third bedroom, this was measured in winter.
I had to buy electric plug in radiators for winter as the heat output was pathetic and after 3 hours of running there was 1 degree increase in house temperature.
The hot water comes from the immersion tank that is warmed at night,
I have doubts over the efficiency of this system, for example,
Water in the tank is 75 degrees in the morning, 3 people have showers and now the water temp is at 50,
Get home at night and want the heating on? Well that's 6kw of immersion heaters firing up to try and get the water temp back to 75.
Edit,
Only certificates was a air tightness test which it passed, I have received no other certificates,
The reply from the solicitors complaint letter was that it was the timber frame that met passivhaus standards, but windows and doors did not, so therefore no passivhaus certificate for the house.
I will have a look at bre thanks.
The system they have put in sends 50 degree heat to the first bedroom,
35 to the next and 16 to the third bedroom, this was measured in winter.
I had to buy electric plug in radiators for winter as the heat output was pathetic and after 3 hours of running there was 1 degree increase in house temperature.
The hot water comes from the immersion tank that is warmed at night,
I have doubts over the efficiency of this system, for example,
Water in the tank is 75 degrees in the morning, 3 people have showers and now the water temp is at 50,
Get home at night and want the heating on? Well that's 6kw of immersion heaters firing up to try and get the water temp back to 75.
Edit,
Only certificates was a air tightness test which it passed, I have received no other certificates,
The reply from the solicitors complaint letter was that it was the timber frame that met passivhaus standards, but windows and doors did not, so therefore no passivhaus certificate for the house.
I will have a look at bre thanks.
Edited by tactical lizard on Wednesday 12th August 19:29
Couple of quick comments.
1. Shouldn't the mvhr be running 24/7 and can you confirm the make and model.
2. With regards to the hot water; do you have any flow restrictions on taps and showers. Building regs now specify a max 125 litres per person per day and typically I have to get down to 105 so flow rates of 7 litres per minute are commonplace on showers. This means you have to be very careful with shower head selection.
1. Shouldn't the mvhr be running 24/7 and can you confirm the make and model.
2. With regards to the hot water; do you have any flow restrictions on taps and showers. Building regs now specify a max 125 litres per person per day and typically I have to get down to 105 so flow rates of 7 litres per minute are commonplace on showers. This means you have to be very careful with shower head selection.
So you were sold a passive house not a passivhaus? If so I doubt this has any legal definition so you bought a house with particular specification and it sounds like this spec was discussed with you pre-sale. It must also comply with building regs, which are quite stringent these days and I doubt electric radiators would comply. If there is no gas then a heat pump is an acceptable solution, but you may have a valid complaint if it's failing to maintain the temperature of the house.
This is unlikely to be clear cut, especially regarding hot water.
This is unlikely to be clear cut, especially regarding hot water.
It's a silavent hrx-b with summer bypass, it does run 24/7 and I have no issue apart from the low flow rates with no way to boost the fans as this feature was removed, it is about 90% efficient from memory and does seem to match the claims.
I think the taps are low flow but would have to fill a bucket up to be sure.
There was mention of the passivhaus standard on websites and other media such as twitter etc, this has now been removed along with passive house,
My main question is can you have a passive house without it meeting passivhaus standards?
I have looked at the passivhaus trust uk and everything appears to go back to the German standard.
The development have admitted that it will not meet passivhaus standards or any other standard such as the passivhaus trust,
This was not explained to me and I only found out when I had moved in and started questioning certification,
And just to highlight the rubbish heating, when I first moved in I went on holiday for two weeks, the heating was left on constantly for two weeks by the development, when I got home the house was still cold but it had used 200kw of power, which doesn't make sense.
I think the taps are low flow but would have to fill a bucket up to be sure.
There was mention of the passivhaus standard on websites and other media such as twitter etc, this has now been removed along with passive house,
My main question is can you have a passive house without it meeting passivhaus standards?
I have looked at the passivhaus trust uk and everything appears to go back to the German standard.
The development have admitted that it will not meet passivhaus standards or any other standard such as the passivhaus trust,
This was not explained to me and I only found out when I had moved in and started questioning certification,
And just to highlight the rubbish heating, when I first moved in I went on holiday for two weeks, the heating was left on constantly for two weeks by the development, when I got home the house was still cold but it had used 200kw of power, which doesn't make sense.
Edited by tactical lizard on Wednesday 12th August 20:17
If you were clearly sold a house built to passivhaus standard (not a passive house) then you may have a valid complaint but you need proper legal advice.
That said, it may be a bit of a red herring if your actual complaint is over the performance of the heating system rather than a missing certificate. Passivhaus or not, the heating system should work satisfactorily.
That said, it may be a bit of a red herring if your actual complaint is over the performance of the heating system rather than a missing certificate. Passivhaus or not, the heating system should work satisfactorily.
Edited by General Fluff on Wednesday 12th August 20:26
It sounds to me as though some finishing elements have been missed in the typical rush to complete.
I would contact polypipe and ask if they can send an engineer out to recommission the system as it doesn't sound like it's been balanced correctly.
With regards to flow rates. The developer should have supplied calculations however I've lost count on how many times the plumbers just ignore it. You can get plastic bags for measuring if you want to check them yourself.
I would contact polypipe and ask if they can send an engineer out to recommission the system as it doesn't sound like it's been balanced correctly.
With regards to flow rates. The developer should have supplied calculations however I've lost count on how many times the plumbers just ignore it. You can get plastic bags for measuring if you want to check them yourself.
So you think there is a difference between a passive house house and a passivhaus house?
I can't see how someone can advertise a passive house if it doesn't meet the standards which appears to be passivhaus standards.
I have been to a litigation solicitor but I am unsure they have a proper grasp of these concepts, and obviously litigation is going to be expensive so I want to know I have a good case.
Well my complaint is the house isn't a passive house and 2) the heating does not work / not a suitable substitution for what was originally sold.
Polypipe did not design the water to air heat exchanger, this is something the development did,
Thanks for the help.
I can't see how someone can advertise a passive house if it doesn't meet the standards which appears to be passivhaus standards.
I have been to a litigation solicitor but I am unsure they have a proper grasp of these concepts, and obviously litigation is going to be expensive so I want to know I have a good case.
Well my complaint is the house isn't a passive house and 2) the heating does not work / not a suitable substitution for what was originally sold.
Polypipe did not design the water to air heat exchanger, this is something the development did,
Thanks for the help.
Edited by tactical lizard on Wednesday 12th August 20:30
tactical lizard said:
So you think there is a difference between a passive house house and a passivhaus house?
"Passivhaus" is a specific standard. The developers say it doesn't meet that - and it doesn't sound like they ever did make any serious claims it would."passive house" is a fairly loose and nebulous arm-wavey concept, no more.
I think this comes down to one of those pre-purchase research failure leading to post-purchase remorse things.
tactical lizard said:
Any links for those bags?
I would be interested in testing them.
This is the first I found https://www.savemoneycutcarbon.com/product/flow-ba...I would be interested in testing them.
Your water supplier might offer them for free though.
Hmmmm interesting, think I have a new business plan then, build and sell passive houses that mean nothing, haha.
In all seriousness though they did reference passivhaus, there are also countless media articles referencing it too which they obviously got from the development and they directly referenced it in tweets and its at the bottom of all their emails.
Ah I thought you ment air flow! I could measure water flow by seeing how many 2 litre bottles I can fill in a minute, might try that now.
In all seriousness though they did reference passivhaus, there are also countless media articles referencing it too which they obviously got from the development and they directly referenced it in tweets and its at the bottom of all their emails.
Ah I thought you ment air flow! I could measure water flow by seeing how many 2 litre bottles I can fill in a minute, might try that now.
I think a buyer can be forgiven for having the wool pulled over their eyes by a developer using terms like passive house whilst also making sure certain aspects do actually meet the proper passivhaus standard.
You have 2 separate issues, were you sold a passivhaus and therefore did you pay a premium for that? Secondly, does the heating system work satisfactorily? I would keep the 2 separate if I were you.
You have 2 separate issues, were you sold a passivhaus and therefore did you pay a premium for that? Secondly, does the heating system work satisfactorily? I would keep the 2 separate if I were you.
bobtail4x4 said:
who is your warrenty with?
who built it?
who did the building control?
on completion you should have been given a file of stuff big enough to choke on.
1) I will find outwho built it?
who did the building control?
on completion you should have been given a file of stuff big enough to choke on.
2) name and shame,
3) the local council
Council don't seem interested, a neighbour who is having the same problems has evidence where checklists have been falsified and the council are massively skirting the issue.
Oh one more issue, I have a small outdoor space between two bedrooms that are on the ground floor, one is a fire door and has an electronic latch, it is possible to go through this door and entrap yourself if it shuts behind you, it only opens from the inside, is this acceptable?
General Fluff said:
I think a buyer can be forgiven for having the wool pulled over their eyes by a developer using terms like passive house whilst also making sure certain aspects do actually meet the proper passivhaus standard.
You have 2 separate issues, were you sold a passivhaus and therefore did you pay a premium for that? Secondly, does the heating system work satisfactorily? I would keep the 2 separate if I were you.
It was the main selling point of the entire development, and they have won a fair few awards.You have 2 separate issues, were you sold a passivhaus and therefore did you pay a premium for that? Secondly, does the heating system work satisfactorily? I would keep the 2 separate if I were you.
I am keeping them seperate, the heating is not acceptable.
tactical lizard said:
It was the main selling point of the entire development, and they have won a fair few awards.
I am keeping them seperate, the heating is not acceptable.
Got any links to sales literature? Were you told it wasn't going to meet the standard pre-completion? Again, 'passive house' means nothing but it's sneaky if that's what they've used.I am keeping them seperate, the heating is not acceptable.
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