Where do I stand with this car dealer
Discussion
In September I part-ex'ed my old car in for a 1999 4.6 Range Rover with 124,000 miles on it as I needed a bigger car for towing my new track car. I've also wanted a Range Rover for a while. It cost £3950 but my BMW was worth £3000 so the remaining £950 was paid on credit card. It came with a 3 month warranty which covers up to £300.
On the drive home the engine overheated, this is after about 3 hours of motorway driving (I keep the car in Leicestershire and the dealership was on the south coast). I pulled over and let it cool before driving the last 30 minutes home very cautiously. I think it was caused after I put the heater on to high and no hot air came out.
After some internet research I found the thermostat is likely at fault and is easy to replace as its external. I phoned the garage to let them know what happened and I got permission to purchase a new thermostat and fit myself. I did this and found the old thermostat completely blocked and sealed so it would not have opened.
Got the new one in and filled it with fresh coolant and it seemed to work ok. I checked all the coolant hoses and none seemed blocked. The cabin heat issue seems related to an internal cabin air temp sensor. I blew this out and some heat has returned. I imagine replacing it will fix it entirely.
Since the cooling issue I had my dad's friend who is a mechanic with a lot of experience with these engines check it over. He has found its misfiring badly and the compression on the two front cylinders are at 35psi whereas the others are at the expected 175psi. I changed the plugs and leads but that made no difference. So now we are looking at either a failed head gasket, cam or rocker problems or worst case, piston problems or a slipped cylinder liner. The latter being terminal for the engine due to the repair costs involved therefore a replacement engine is needed (which you can get on eBay for £850-£1200).
Now speaking to the garage they have offered to increase the warranty value to £500 but that seems like all they are willing to do. This morning I have emailed them the above and said I want to bring them the car and have them put it right. Ideally I want them to authorise my dad's friend to do the work (he estimates the costs to be around £1500 assuming its not terminal) as he does own a garage.
I have copied of the eBay advert saved but not on this computer, I can upload later to avoid name and shame. I found the car through Auto Trader and is a a proper trader, not some dodgy outfit.
Now I know these Range Rovers are not known for sterling reliability and I would understand if this was for sale on the bottom end of the market but as far as P38s go this was at the upper end of the market.
The think I want to know is do they have to fix the engine despite the warranty not offering enough money to cover the repair?
Thanks for any replies.
On the drive home the engine overheated, this is after about 3 hours of motorway driving (I keep the car in Leicestershire and the dealership was on the south coast). I pulled over and let it cool before driving the last 30 minutes home very cautiously. I think it was caused after I put the heater on to high and no hot air came out.
After some internet research I found the thermostat is likely at fault and is easy to replace as its external. I phoned the garage to let them know what happened and I got permission to purchase a new thermostat and fit myself. I did this and found the old thermostat completely blocked and sealed so it would not have opened.
Got the new one in and filled it with fresh coolant and it seemed to work ok. I checked all the coolant hoses and none seemed blocked. The cabin heat issue seems related to an internal cabin air temp sensor. I blew this out and some heat has returned. I imagine replacing it will fix it entirely.
Since the cooling issue I had my dad's friend who is a mechanic with a lot of experience with these engines check it over. He has found its misfiring badly and the compression on the two front cylinders are at 35psi whereas the others are at the expected 175psi. I changed the plugs and leads but that made no difference. So now we are looking at either a failed head gasket, cam or rocker problems or worst case, piston problems or a slipped cylinder liner. The latter being terminal for the engine due to the repair costs involved therefore a replacement engine is needed (which you can get on eBay for £850-£1200).
Now speaking to the garage they have offered to increase the warranty value to £500 but that seems like all they are willing to do. This morning I have emailed them the above and said I want to bring them the car and have them put it right. Ideally I want them to authorise my dad's friend to do the work (he estimates the costs to be around £1500 assuming its not terminal) as he does own a garage.
I have copied of the eBay advert saved but not on this computer, I can upload later to avoid name and shame. I found the car through Auto Trader and is a a proper trader, not some dodgy outfit.
Now I know these Range Rovers are not known for sterling reliability and I would understand if this was for sale on the bottom end of the market but as far as P38s go this was at the upper end of the market.
The think I want to know is do they have to fix the engine despite the warranty not offering enough money to cover the repair?
Thanks for any replies.
lewisco said:
On the drive home the engine overheated, this is after about 3 hours of motorway driving (I keep the car in Leicestershire and the dealership was on the south coast). I pulled over and let it cool before driving the last 30 minutes home very cautiously. I think it was caused after I put the heater on to high and no hot air came out.
So the car overheated, ran out of coolant, then you continued to drive it.Yeh. I think any comeback you may have had disappeared at that point...
It didn't run out off coolant. It dropped low but still in the header tank. Once it cooled enough I topped it up with water. Also the engine was running for no more than 30 seconds from when the light came on as I happened to be near a petrol station and it was idling in neutral until I stopped it.
I would think that the head gasket has blown and some combustion gases have migrated to the heater inlet hose which became air-locked (so to speak) thus the heater ran only cold.
Regardless, the dealer has a responsibility (aside from any warranty offered) for six months after purchase. Search my posts for a recent similar thread to this where I have posted, for an explanation of what proportion of the repair they could arguably be responsible for (I don't have time at the moment to type it up again nor search for it, sorrry). Sadly it will be nowhere near 100% of the costs, being realistic - say 20% or 30%, feel free to discuss?
Regardless, the dealer has a responsibility (aside from any warranty offered) for six months after purchase. Search my posts for a recent similar thread to this where I have posted, for an explanation of what proportion of the repair they could arguably be responsible for (I don't have time at the moment to type it up again nor search for it, sorrry). Sadly it will be nowhere near 100% of the costs, being realistic - say 20% or 30%, feel free to discuss?
aw51 121565 said:
Regardless, the dealer has a responsibility (aside from any warranty offered) for six months after purchase.
Yes, they have a responsibility for the original fault - to a certain extent. On a 16yo car, there's going to be VERY heavy mitigation for expected wear and tear, and if the coolant loss turns out to have been caused by a stone through the rad, then all bets are off.What they don't have any responsibility for is the damage arising from continuing to drive the thing.
Now prove which is which.
The heater never got hot. I picked it up in the afternoon from the south coast. Drive 2 odd hours into London to load up some stuff from my flat as we are moving next month. Then on the 2 ish hour drive up to Leicestershire it started feeling cold as it was late so I put the heater on, and nothing. Figured I'd talk to the garage about it I turned it off and carried on as was almost home, then the temperature light came on. There was no coolant leaking from the system either. When I drained the old coolant when I did the thermostat it was just water in the system, not very nice water either. No coolant at all.
I understand its an old car. And if it is just a head gasket then that's bad a major problem and I would sort myself. But if the cylinder liner has slipped due to the car overheating before I had it, due to the thermostat not working, then I think its on them to fix the engine?
Thanks aw51, will search for that.
Edit: found it here.
Thanks aw51, will search for that.
Edit: found it here.
Edited by lewisco on Friday 16th October 09:40
A decent garage should have a leak detector that analyses the coolant. Does cost to use but not much and can be very useful.
Shown on this page:
http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/blown-head-gasket...
Shown on this page:
http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/blown-head-gasket...
Slidingpillar said:
A decent garage should have a leak detector that analyses the coolant. Does cost to use but not much and can be very useful.
Shown on this page:
http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/blown-head-gasket...
That looks like an easy test. Will ask him about that now. Thanks.Shown on this page:
http://pmmonline.co.uk/technical/blown-head-gasket...
It needs to go back on them for them to check it out and try and fix - call them and tell them that's what you will do and see what they say.
The warranty are very unlikely to pay out anything related to overheating on 15 year old 100k plus 4x4 you will need the garage to help with the repair ( once you get nowhere with the cheap warranty).
The warranty are very unlikely to pay out anything related to overheating on 15 year old 100k plus 4x4 you will need the garage to help with the repair ( once you get nowhere with the cheap warranty).
lewisco said:
When I drained the old coolant when I did the thermostat it was just water in the system, not very nice water either. No coolant at all.
Which would have been visible in the header tank before purchase, right?The fact you've been DIYing isn't going to help your argument one bit. The dealer has a right to diagnose and repair. The fact they're the other end of the country isn't their choice - you chose to buy from them, knowing where they were.
TooMany2cvs said:
Which would have been visible in the header tank before purchase, right?
The fact you've been DIYing isn't going to help your argument one bit. The dealer has a right to diagnose and repair. The fact they're the other end of the country isn't their choice - you chose to buy from them, knowing where they were.
I understand the distance now is my issue, accepted. I've only been DIYing after I called them and they approved me to do it. Changing the thermostat, coolant, spark plugs and HT leads is an easy job and I was trying to help them by saving money (which the garage appreciated).The fact you've been DIYing isn't going to help your argument one bit. The dealer has a right to diagnose and repair. The fact they're the other end of the country isn't their choice - you chose to buy from them, knowing where they were.
The car I'm towing, hence the reason for getting the Range Rover, is a Westfield I have just built which included modified coolant routing so I have some knowledge.
(Apologies if this is coming off as arguing, its not meant to read like that)
rallycross said:
This won't help much but you don't need a big daft Range Rover to tow a caterhamWestfield.
Haha I know, overkill. I have wanted one for a while and I thought this was a good example. Body was generally tidy and its an Autobiography so has some good extras on it.This is it from when I went on the test drive
I really do love it despite its problems. I know I can't preobably anyway but I wouldn't try a reject it. I really want them to get the engine sorted. All the other things I am happy to fix myself. Its actually nice to work on a car with so much space compared to the Westfield where things are quite hard to access.
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