Bus lane out of hours.
Discussion
Another in the series of ‘what does this traffic sign mean, what is it trying to say, and how should I interpret it?’.
Travelling east on the A193. Lane 1 is a bus lane from 0700-1900. I'm normally there later than that.
https://goo.gl/maps/VqVH9x3qyrM2
The sign suggests lane 1 is Left Turn Only (except buses). The paint on the road suggests Left Turn only (and makes no exception for buses).
Lane 1 after the junction continues to be a bus lane from 0700-1900*.
Do they really intend that I approach the junction in Lane 1, switch to Lane 2 to go through it, and then switch back to Lane 1 again? That would make little sense at quiet times.
Or do they really mean Left Turn Only (except traffic which is allowed to use the bus lane, whether by being a bus, or by virtue of the time of day) which would, admittedly, be quite long!
I only ask because Lane 1, along with most bus lanes around here out of hours, is usually completely empty, and its nice to have my own private lane.
_
Travelling east on the A193. Lane 1 is a bus lane from 0700-1900. I'm normally there later than that.
https://goo.gl/maps/VqVH9x3qyrM2
The sign suggests lane 1 is Left Turn Only (except buses). The paint on the road suggests Left Turn only (and makes no exception for buses).
Lane 1 after the junction continues to be a bus lane from 0700-1900*.
Do they really intend that I approach the junction in Lane 1, switch to Lane 2 to go through it, and then switch back to Lane 1 again? That would make little sense at quiet times.
Or do they really mean Left Turn Only (except traffic which is allowed to use the bus lane, whether by being a bus, or by virtue of the time of day) which would, admittedly, be quite long!
I only ask because Lane 1, along with most bus lanes around here out of hours, is usually completely empty, and its nice to have my own private lane.
_
- You can’t see the signs for this on Streetview, except for one angle, but they are there in real life.
qualitystreet said:
not quite. It states 'bus lane'. I'm not sure this puts it at odds with the signage on the road itself as there isn't a left and ahead arrow (that I've ever seen) which specifically states 'bus lane only' or similar on the straight ahead arrow. Normally you would have to treat it as a left hand filter lane but as you say, buses wouldn't need to abide by this.I'm not an expert on such things and provided there was nobody else there to present a safety issue in using the left lane to travel into the bus lane on the other side of the junction I'd just use that. If there was a car waiting to pull out of the junction (lets just say it's a day where the traffic lights are down for some reason) I would use the right hand lane for the sake of safety anyway. Not sure what the 100% legal answer is though.
Edited by ModernAndy on Friday 30th October 15:07
My interpretation of that wording is the use of the text bus lane is correct as it's not a 24/7 bus lane. If the bus lane is outside its hours of operation then it's not a bus lane, is it?
The alternative text for that sign would be to say except buses, in which case that would be incorrect as it's a part time bus lane, but would be suggesting that, even though the bus lane was not in operation only buses can go straight ahead in lane 1. That would mean, as the OP suggests, a vehicle legally in lane 1 would have to move to lane 2 if it wanted to go straight ahead. That's crackers frankly, and why it says bus lane.
Sorry for above convoluted and round the houses explanation but I would use the lanes to go straight ahead out of hours, but exercise a lot of caution due to not trusting other road users.
The alternative text for that sign would be to say except buses, in which case that would be incorrect as it's a part time bus lane, but would be suggesting that, even though the bus lane was not in operation only buses can go straight ahead in lane 1. That would mean, as the OP suggests, a vehicle legally in lane 1 would have to move to lane 2 if it wanted to go straight ahead. That's crackers frankly, and why it says bus lane.
Sorry for above convoluted and round the houses explanation but I would use the lanes to go straight ahead out of hours, but exercise a lot of caution due to not trusting other road users.
As above, you could make the case that it is a left turn only lane unless the bus lane is active and in that case it would only be buses, taxis and cycles at certain times of the day that can go straight ahead. At any other time of day they would have to use the other lane as well as all other traffic. In my opinion, this isn't stated explicitly by the signage.
A bus lane could be considered an ordinary lane which has operational rules and so you might consider a bus lane to still be a bus lane outside the hours it is operational.
A bus lane could be considered an ordinary lane which has operational rules and so you might consider a bus lane to still be a bus lane outside the hours it is operational.
I'm struggling to find any guidance on this type of junction. They are quite common so you'd think it would be easier to find out how to use them properly and legally. I must admit I'd went on the assumption that if it says 'and buses' (the 'bus lane' signage you can see on the pole on Google maps there is new to me) it is to be considered as a bus lane and can be used when the bus lane isn't active. Now I think about it, there are arrows on the road you can get that have a left hand arrow and a straight ahead arrow that states 'buses' or similar.
The only slightly relevant thing I could find was from the Highway Code:
Rule 141: Bus lanes. These are shown by road markings and signs that indicate which (if any) other vehicles are permitted to use the bus lane. Unless otherwise indicated, you should not drive in a bus lane during its period of operation. You may enter a bus lane to stop, to load or unload where this is not prohibited.
I take this to mean that a bus lane is a physical zone that should be considered a bus lane even out of hours with the provision that other traffic can use it when it is not operational.
given the sign states 'bus lane' it would seem that the signage allows a straight ahead for all vehicles outside operational hours of the bus lane but the marking on the road clearly indicates left only which makes this particular junction a bit confusing.
The only slightly relevant thing I could find was from the Highway Code:
Rule 141: Bus lanes. These are shown by road markings and signs that indicate which (if any) other vehicles are permitted to use the bus lane. Unless otherwise indicated, you should not drive in a bus lane during its period of operation. You may enter a bus lane to stop, to load or unload where this is not prohibited.
I take this to mean that a bus lane is a physical zone that should be considered a bus lane even out of hours with the provision that other traffic can use it when it is not operational.
given the sign states 'bus lane' it would seem that the signage allows a straight ahead for all vehicles outside operational hours of the bus lane but the marking on the road clearly indicates left only which makes this particular junction a bit confusing.
No the marking on the road doesn't mean left only. The arrow on its own means this is the preferential lane for turning left. If there was text saying turn left in addition to the arrow, then it's a turn left only lane. Ref Traffic signs and general direction regs plus traffic signs manual.
FiF said:
No the marking on the road doesn't mean left only. The arrow on its own means this is the preferential lane for turning left. If there was text saying turn left in addition to the arrow, then it's a turn left only lane. Ref Traffic signs and general direction regs plus traffic signs manual.
I realise this and didn't mean to imply it was a legal requirement that only a left turn could be executed in that lane. I was trying to say that ordinarily at junctions similar to the one in question they have a left and ahead arrow with something like 'buses' above the ahead arrow that a car driver can take to mean that they can use that lane out of hours. In this case, like you mentioned in your first post, it looks like the planners have tried to prevent any cars from using the left lane as an ahead lane by the use of a left hand arrow on the road but it seems the planners do want buses to use it during bus lane hours if you go by the sign on the post. If you remove the context of the bus lane sign, you would ordinarily say it was designed as a left turn only lane. The question is of course answered in your post as quoted but I wouldn't rely on that alone to use that lane in everyday traffic.
FiF said:
No the marking on the road doesn't mean left only. The arrow on its own means this is the preferential lane for turning left. If there was text saying turn left in addition to the arrow, then it's a turn left only lane. Ref Traffic signs and general direction regs plus traffic signs manual.
FifThis left turn arrow on its own is of the most abused signs that could evr have been put on a road.
Along the A329 just south of Winnersh Crossroads there is an entrance to Sainsburys that is controlled by lights. Approaching the main lights at the crossroads the two lanes are marked (LH)Straight ahead and (RH) Right turn and straight, BUT there is a white sign confirming this with the rider that the RH lane after the lights is 'superstore only'
Now back at the superstore lights the LH lane has the straight arrow, the RH lane the turn right arrow. The traffic lights that control this when green has the LH post showing a straight ahead arrow, the RH light shows RED!! There is no blue circular turn right sign attached to the RH light.
What we get is the numpties in the crossroads lights bowling up i the RH lane ( normally shorter) going across the junction, and then either doing the LH indicator push in move, or going straight on past the light at which point the rh lane disappears by means of hatching.
Plod sometimes turn up and pull people over, but as you have said the arrow is advisory only, and even going past the red light in that lane is not an offence as there is no blue turn right only sign.
simple to put a sign in and stop it all, but the planners dont think simple do they? One day there will be an almighty pile up, perhaps then they might act.
qualitystreet said:
The sign suggests lane 1 is Left Turn Only (except buses).
It is for all traffic including buses wishing to turn left.qualitystreet said:
The paint on the road suggests Left Turn only (and makes no exception for buses).
The bus lane stops approx. 50yds short of the lights (as marked by the end of the red paint) to enable those who want to turn left to be able to do so during the period that the bus lane is active.qualitystreet said:
Do they really intend that I approach the junction in Lane 1, switch to Lane 2 to go through it, and then switch back to Lane 1 again? That would make little sense at quiet times.
No. If you are driving in the bus lane out of hours then you would stay in lane 1. The sign is informing you that the bus lane continues once you have crossed the junction in lane 1.qualitystreet said:
Or do they really mean Left Turn Only (except traffic which is allowed to use the bus lane, whether by being a bus, or by virtue of the time of day) which would, admittedly, be quite long!
Pretty much.. yesI only ask because Lane 1, along with most bus lanes around here out of hours, is usually completely empty, and its nice to have my own private lane.
_
- You can’t see the signs for this on Streetview, except for one angle, but they are there in real life.
The markings on the road give the 'appropriate' directions for the junction and are not mandatory. 'turn left' underneath the arrow in the left lane would make it mandatory and since this is missing it is only suggestive of the appropriate way to use the road. This being the case, we now have to look at the sign on the post by the junction which has a horizontal red rectangle/line to forbid certain traffic from using the left lane to go straight ahead at the junction. Above the red line it clearly states 'bus lane'.
I can't find any part of the law or the highway code that states that that bus lane is only considered for the purposes of the sign on the post when it is within active timed hours. It would therefore appear that the sign is excepting vehicles using the bus lane (accepting that the part just before the junction isn't considered part of the bus lane) and there is no further implication that this vehicle needs to be a bus, a taxi, a cycle or anything else.
My verdict is that this is an exceedingly grey area. I would also imagine it would be difficult to convict anybody using the left lane to go straight ahead outside the hours the bus lane is active if plod or the council got involved.
I can't find any part of the law or the highway code that states that that bus lane is only considered for the purposes of the sign on the post when it is within active timed hours. It would therefore appear that the sign is excepting vehicles using the bus lane (accepting that the part just before the junction isn't considered part of the bus lane) and there is no further implication that this vehicle needs to be a bus, a taxi, a cycle or anything else.
My verdict is that this is an exceedingly grey area. I would also imagine it would be difficult to convict anybody using the left lane to go straight ahead outside the hours the bus lane is active if plod or the council got involved.
I disagree and believe that FiF gave the right answer earlier. The painted arrow by itself has no mandatory force unless it is accompanied by the relevant wording.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/image...
Forcing traffic which is legitimately in lane 1 during the out-of-hours period to move to lane 2 in order to negotiate the junction before returning to lane 1 again afterwards is not merely dumb but actively detrimental to safety.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/image...
Forcing traffic which is legitimately in lane 1 during the out-of-hours period to move to lane 2 in order to negotiate the junction before returning to lane 1 again afterwards is not merely dumb but actively detrimental to safety.
Red Devil said:
I disagree and believe that FiF gave the right answer earlier. The painted arrow by itself has no mandatory force unless it is accompanied by the relevant wording.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/image...
Forcing traffic which is legitimately in lane 1 during the out-of-hours period to move to lane 2 in order to negotiate the junction before returning to lane 1 again afterwards is not merely dumb but actively detrimental to safety.
Correcto. The words 'LEFT TURN, RIGHT TURN or AHEAD ONLY" mean a mandatory requirement. An arrow by itself is a suggestion only (though if it were to go wrong and a crash result, that would likely be looked at unfavourably in court). http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/image...
Forcing traffic which is legitimately in lane 1 during the out-of-hours period to move to lane 2 in order to negotiate the junction before returning to lane 1 again afterwards is not merely dumb but actively detrimental to safety.
My reading of this is that this is an information sign, suggesting a left turn and stating that there is a bus lane ahead and that the bus lane is prohibited to non-bus traffic, at least during hours of operation.
Red Devil said:
I disagree and believe that FiF gave the right answer earlier. The painted arrow by itself has no mandatory force unless it is accompanied by the relevant wording.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/image...
Forcing traffic which is legitimately in lane 1 during the out-of-hours period to move to lane 2 in order to negotiate the junction before returning to lane 1 again afterwards is not merely dumb but actively detrimental to safety.
I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me but other than giving a slightly broader answer, that is essentially exactly what I am saying.http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/image...
Forcing traffic which is legitimately in lane 1 during the out-of-hours period to move to lane 2 in order to negotiate the junction before returning to lane 1 again afterwards is not merely dumb but actively detrimental to safety.
I queried the same sign with Aberdeen council, and have it in writing that the sign with the red bar across does not apply out with bus lane times.
No point changing lanes to cross the junction and moving back is there.
I carry that letter in my car just in case some enterprising chappie decides he thinks otherwise.
No point changing lanes to cross the junction and moving back is there.
I carry that letter in my car just in case some enterprising chappie decides he thinks otherwise.
Edited by Vipers on Monday 2nd November 06:15
qualitystreet said:
I only ask because Lane 1, along with most bus lanes around here out of hours, is usually completely empty, and its nice to have my own private lane.
Oi, get out of MY private lane! I tend to go straight over as well, at the end of MY private lane as well 
Although usually with a fair bit of caution as most people seem to ignore the next section of bus lane before the Tanners and drift over if there isn't a bus at the stop.Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff