customer wont pay, no costs discussed before site visit
Discussion
Before I even start, we WONT be pursuing this as it simply not worth the time and effort for £120.
We run a small family run heating business and were called out to do an estimate on a Biomass installation. We do free estimates and attended site, we strongly advised customer against going that route as it was just not suitable for her situation. Anyways she ignored our advice and had CIRCA £30K worth of work done which inevitably went wrong.
She contacted us to ask for a site visit and report on what was wrong and what was required to rectify the issues. Now admittedly we did not forewarn this would be a site visit and report which naturally IS chargeable, and equally she didn’t ask if there would be a fee.
So now she received a bill for a measly £100+ VAT for engineer to go out and spend 4 hours on site as well as another hour in the office doing a very detailed report, to which she has had a fit. She states we never told her this would cost her (which we didn’t) and she however never asked if there would be any costs involved either.
Cant be arsed fighting it but curious as to what the 'law' would say. Just tired of these clowns who expect to call out qualified tradesman and then bleat when they get a bill ???
We run a small family run heating business and were called out to do an estimate on a Biomass installation. We do free estimates and attended site, we strongly advised customer against going that route as it was just not suitable for her situation. Anyways she ignored our advice and had CIRCA £30K worth of work done which inevitably went wrong.
She contacted us to ask for a site visit and report on what was wrong and what was required to rectify the issues. Now admittedly we did not forewarn this would be a site visit and report which naturally IS chargeable, and equally she didn’t ask if there would be a fee.
So now she received a bill for a measly £100+ VAT for engineer to go out and spend 4 hours on site as well as another hour in the office doing a very detailed report, to which she has had a fit. She states we never told her this would cost her (which we didn’t) and she however never asked if there would be any costs involved either.
Cant be arsed fighting it but curious as to what the 'law' would say. Just tired of these clowns who expect to call out qualified tradesman and then bleat when they get a bill ???
Takes 2 minutes to explain terms ahead of something that you were estimating would take a chunk of time.
Whilst I think she is naive, I think you are also naive in starting work and billing a client without explaining your terms and costs.
War and peace isn't needed, you could do it in a pro-forma document and have her sign at the start of the survey. No signature, no 4 hrs of work.
Edit: I'm tired of professionals that aren't professional in their contracts. You see hundreds of clients, she only sees one specialist. You have a duty to professionalise your engagement. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
Whilst I think she is naive, I think you are also naive in starting work and billing a client without explaining your terms and costs.
War and peace isn't needed, you could do it in a pro-forma document and have her sign at the start of the survey. No signature, no 4 hrs of work.
Edit: I'm tired of professionals that aren't professional in their contracts. You see hundreds of clients, she only sees one specialist. You have a duty to professionalise your engagement. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
Vaud said:
Edit: I'm tired of professionals that aren't professional in their contracts. You see hundreds of clients, she only sees one specialist. You have a duty to professionalise your engagement. Sorry if that sounds harsh.
I was going to type the same thing - quite right. You've created a relationship with the client that you come out and quote for free.
You came out and quoted for free to install.
You came out and quoted to fix the problem. If you wanted to charge for that, you have made that clear.
Regardless of the above, you should have a look at the recent consumer regulations and bring your procedures in accordance.
I sympathise, it's probably six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Put it down to experience and don't make the same mistake again.
You may get some slight satisfaction (naughty I know) that she has wasted thousands, going against your original advice.
You will certainly sleep better than she will.
Move on, life's too short.
Put it down to experience and don't make the same mistake again.
You may get some slight satisfaction (naughty I know) that she has wasted thousands, going against your original advice.
You will certainly sleep better than she will.
Move on, life's too short.
I fully accept we are perhaps a little lax as we are a small but long established business. We never really get these issues perhaps but once a year if even that.
Wrongly we didn’t advise in advance we would be charging for a report, But rather foolishly we didn’t expect to have to go a reassess someone else’s work and give her a detailed list of what was done wrong and what would be required to rectify .
In fairness it should NEVER have taken 4 hours, it was meant to be a quick pop passed and have a quick look. When he arrived it was so bad it ended up taking 4 hours to go through it all and work out how in hells name they had made such a hash of the job.
As I said, we have no intentions of chasing £120.. just wondered what the consensus was.
Wrongly we didn’t advise in advance we would be charging for a report, But rather foolishly we didn’t expect to have to go a reassess someone else’s work and give her a detailed list of what was done wrong and what would be required to rectify .
In fairness it should NEVER have taken 4 hours, it was meant to be a quick pop passed and have a quick look. When he arrived it was so bad it ended up taking 4 hours to go through it all and work out how in hells name they had made such a hash of the job.
As I said, we have no intentions of chasing £120.. just wondered what the consensus was.
Jasandjules said:
I don't know anyone who would think a report of that nature would be free.
Having worked in roles facing the general public there is little I don't believe in terms of expectations.She probably didn't think per se - and if she did that it was covered by some industry trade body, or "goodwill", "good of the trade" etc
Edited by Vaud on Monday 9th November 19:52
Just some quick answers now I’ve finished dinner.
I shall dock my wife's wages for the £120..which she will just take back out my wallet no doubt
JustinP1 said:
You came out and quoted for free to install.
You came out and quoted to fix the problem. If you wanted to charge for that, you have made that clear.
We did quote to install which is indeed free as we could gain works from it. We didn’t quote for fixing the issue as she didn’t want us too. She wanted a report so she could pursue the clowns who carried out the original works. So no gain or benefit to us at all.You came out and quoted to fix the problem. If you wanted to charge for that, you have made that clear.
JM said:
What made her think the visit and producing the report would be free?
Absolutely nothing, Just a regular customer who thinks skilled people earn a crust doing everything for free (even after ignoring our FREE sound advise). More the fool her. Wacky Racer said:
I sympathise, it's probably six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Put it down to experience and don't make the same mistake again.
Move on, life's too short.
Exactly our stance , thankfully we may only get one of these if any per year so no great issue.Put it down to experience and don't make the same mistake again.
Move on, life's too short.
Jasandjules said:
I don't know anyone who would think a report of that nature would be free.
This daft moo did…SVTRick said:
A report on an installation under those circumstances is not an estimate or a quote.
Its a Report by a Qualified Engineer.
Chargeable in full.
100% agreed, unfortunately admittedly we didn’t make it 100% clear either so its poor communication on our part. Its a Report by a Qualified Engineer.
Chargeable in full.
I shall dock my wife's wages for the £120..which she will just take back out my wallet no doubt
fastbikes76 said:
We did quote to install which is indeed free as we could gain works from it. We didn’t quote for fixing the issue as she didn’t want us too. She wanted a report so she could pursue the clowns who carried out the original works. So no gain or benefit to us at all.
Right, *that's* a bit different. 
If all that was 100% clear, and understood by both parties, then in the absence of agreement a reasonable amount would be deemed fair.
It is of course best practice to quote an hourly/job rate though, and I wouldn't be handing over the report unless she pays for it!
There is a significant duty on you to provide a lot of information including the main characteristic of the service and any price.
The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013
I suspect you will find therefore you are not complying with the law.
I'm with the lady.
The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013
I suspect you will find therefore you are not complying with the law.
I'm with the lady.
I can see the next issue is going to be that the other company disagree with your report.
She will decide to sue & escalate it to court.
You/your engineer could be called.
I suggest you advise in writing that any further actions on your part are chargeable and specify your terms and hourly rate.
She will decide to sue & escalate it to court.
You/your engineer could be called.
I suggest you advise in writing that any further actions on your part are chargeable and specify your terms and hourly rate.
I too think this may end up going legal regarding the other firm, given the tone of her letter to us about non payment. All I can say is she can FRO if she thinks she will be gaining any advice or help from this point onwards. She knows all the faults with current installation as the Engineer discussed them with her while on site.
We already fully advise people on potential costs however admittedly we missed the boat on this one. I sleep well knowing she has £30K worth of balls up to contend with while I only have £120 to forget about.
We already fully advise people on potential costs however admittedly we missed the boat on this one. I sleep well knowing she has £30K worth of balls up to contend with while I only have £120 to forget about.
sonarbell said:
I had a small repair workshop many years ago and customers would expect a free estimate.. My reply was "Would you work for nothing" ?
Most of them still struggled to comprehend the concept of running a business !
??Most of them still struggled to comprehend the concept of running a business !
Sounds like you don't understand the concept of running a business.
You expect your customers to just ask you to do work with no idea how much it would cost?
For any non-list-price service I would ask for a free estimate.
Anyone who refuses simply wouldn't get the work since he is probably the most expensive.
Anyone who replied "would you work for nothing?" like a smug git wouldn't get my business no matter what.
walm said:
??
Sounds like you don't understand the concept of running a business.
You expect your customers to just ask you to do work with no idea how much it would cost?
For any non-list-price service I would ask for a free estimate.
Anyone who refuses simply wouldn't get the work since he is probably the most expensive.
Anyone who replied "would you work for nothing?" like a smug git wouldn't get my business no matter what.
I think it depends on the level of work needed to produce the estimate. In a big business it is written off as a presales cost. Within limits it should be in a small business.Sounds like you don't understand the concept of running a business.
You expect your customers to just ask you to do work with no idea how much it would cost?
For any non-list-price service I would ask for a free estimate.
Anyone who refuses simply wouldn't get the work since he is probably the most expensive.
Anyone who replied "would you work for nothing?" like a smug git wouldn't get my business no matter what.
Question is, where do you draw the line? Example: 30 mins pricing up standard suspension parts and writing a quote - free. A complex engine rebuild with 30 parts needed and imports, tax, careful validation of the build time: I'd charge a small nominal fee, partly to qualify the customer, with it coming off the bill if they go ahead.
But the "would you work for nothing?" is just bad customer service. Recover the costs, just build it into your total rate and set boundaries of what is free.
Vaud said:
Example: 30 mins pricing up standard suspension parts and writing a quote - free.
It takes 30 mins to do that?I agree with you pretty much.
I am well aware that the RFP for HS2 was going to cost a few £XXm to put together.
But if you are consumer facing and someone is clearly looking to compare prices - counting yourself out by being a dick doesn't seem good business to me.
Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff