Lack of police on motorways - standards deteriorating?
Discussion
Purely anecdotal evidence from my own experience, but does anyone else feel we've now arrived at the stage where the majority of drivers feel the only policing done on motorways is by static cameras?
I genuinely cannot remember the last time I saw a marked police car on a motorway, except at the site of an accident.
I've seen some pretty outrageous driving recently on motorways in the South East (e.g. deliberately cutting other drivers, who have impeded the offender, up and braking in front of them) - the sort of driving that would see you with at least a careless driving charge, had it been witnessed by an officer.
Of course, I know that there are sometimes unmarked cars patrolling, but these seem very few and far between and beyond the concern of many drivers.
Am I just getting old and cantankerous, or is this a widespread effect of reducing police budgets?
I genuinely cannot remember the last time I saw a marked police car on a motorway, except at the site of an accident.
I've seen some pretty outrageous driving recently on motorways in the South East (e.g. deliberately cutting other drivers, who have impeded the offender, up and braking in front of them) - the sort of driving that would see you with at least a careless driving charge, had it been witnessed by an officer.
Of course, I know that there are sometimes unmarked cars patrolling, but these seem very few and far between and beyond the concern of many drivers.
Am I just getting old and cantankerous, or is this a widespread effect of reducing police budgets?
I do 40 a busy motorway miles a day - cant remember the last marked car I saw on there however saw an unmarked Volvo pull a car over this afternoon
Standards and lane discipline are generally poor - not sure if marked patrols would make any difference though
Standards and lane discipline are generally poor - not sure if marked patrols would make any difference though
Edited by Bigends on Monday 4th January 16:35
I hardly ever see marked traffic cars on the M4/M3/M25 these days.
Sometimes I'll see an unmarked car who's pulled someone or unmarked non-traffic car on their way to a job.
My personal opinion is that marked cars sitting at 70mph in lane 1 as they often used to do can cause big tailbacks and more frustration, so I'm glad they are rare now.
If unmarked traffic cars are targetting the unsafe & inconsiderate drivers and leaving those of us who want to press on alone, then that is also a good thing.
On the whole, I prefer having to deal with a few fixed cameras than masses of marked/unmarked Police on my routes, because I'll still have to contend with bad drivers either way. They don't stop driving badly just because there are more Police around.
Sometimes I'll see an unmarked car who's pulled someone or unmarked non-traffic car on their way to a job.
My personal opinion is that marked cars sitting at 70mph in lane 1 as they often used to do can cause big tailbacks and more frustration, so I'm glad they are rare now.
If unmarked traffic cars are targetting the unsafe & inconsiderate drivers and leaving those of us who want to press on alone, then that is also a good thing.
On the whole, I prefer having to deal with a few fixed cameras than masses of marked/unmarked Police on my routes, because I'll still have to contend with bad drivers either way. They don't stop driving badly just because there are more Police around.
FurtiveFreddy said:
They don't stop driving badly just because there are more Police around.
Disagree. Likelihood of getting caught discourages criminal behaviour (people don't knowingly choose to speed through speed cameras*) and more traffic police reduces the incidence of poor driving. There is a bad driving thread on PH weekly, or maybe a little more often. Yes, standards are getting worse. Yes, there are fewer police around than before. Where does it end up? Poor, dangerous and unpleasant roads. I'd be genuinely interested in sensible comment from TrafPol on here about what they see the likely end point being. A major smash involving someone influential (cabinet member perhaps) and a serious rollicking for the HomeSec? Or a dramatic change of policy on police funding?
-*- Point made for no more than illustration. I am not pro-camera.
2Btoo said:
Disagree. Likelihood of getting caught discourages criminal behaviour (people don't knowingly choose to speed through speed cameras*) and more traffic police reduces the incidence of poor driving.
The vast majority of bad drivers remain bad drivers even after they've been caught driving badly.Most of them don't even know they're bad drivers! Hence, they don't modify their behavior when they see a Police car.
BTW, by 'bad' I don't necessarily mean fast or dangerous.
Does anyone think that more Police patrolling the roads will actually improve driving standards?
It needs a lot more effort put into education, training and changing people's minds about what defines good and bad driving.
Edited by FurtiveFreddy on Monday 4th January 17:05
2Btoo said:
Disagree. Likelihood of getting caught discourages criminal behaviour (people don't knowingly choose to speed through speed cameras*) and more traffic police reduces the incidence of poor driving.
There is a bad driving thread on PH weekly, or maybe a little more often. Yes, standards are getting worse. Yes, there are fewer police around than before. Where does it end up? Poor, dangerous and unpleasant roads. I'd be genuinely interested in sensible comment from TrafPol on here about what they see the likely end point being. A major smash involving someone influential (cabinet member perhaps) and a serious rollicking for the HomeSec? Or a dramatic change of policy on police funding?
-*- Point made for no more than illustration. I am not pro-camera.
On a general point does the likelihood of getting caught discourage criminal behaviour? I suspect that most people don't commit criminal behaviour because they don't wish too. It has always been fairly easy to get away with bad driving in this country. When I first got my drivers licence back in 1992 the risk of getting caught didn't stop me or my mates driving like complete tools.There is a bad driving thread on PH weekly, or maybe a little more often. Yes, standards are getting worse. Yes, there are fewer police around than before. Where does it end up? Poor, dangerous and unpleasant roads. I'd be genuinely interested in sensible comment from TrafPol on here about what they see the likely end point being. A major smash involving someone influential (cabinet member perhaps) and a serious rollicking for the HomeSec? Or a dramatic change of policy on police funding?
-*- Point made for no more than illustration. I am not pro-camera.
Standards getting worse? I can't count the number of times this has been suggested on PH. It pops up regularly and is almost always supported by anecdote a plenty from the usual suspects.
Every time I read it I ask the same question: What actual evidence have you got to support the assertion that standards are getting worse?
We have some of the safest roads in the world. The KSI stats have been on a downward trend for decades and the last time I heard the number of insurance claims was actually declining as well. None of this would point to a decline in driving standards. I don't much care for anecdotes either, they're not good evidence and so should not be treated as if they are.
There are those on PH who have created a narrative to do with speed cameras and how their use has ultimately lead to a decline in driving standards. I think these people see what they want to see. I also think that the views that "Everything is going to the dogs" and "things were better in my days" have been around for thousands of years and should be treated with equal skepticism.
Definitely notice the poor driving standards on motorways now in particular. I'm a night trucker and I'd say that around 50% of the traffic now (not counting trucks) just sit in lane 2 regardless of what's going on around them nor if the motorway in front is empty as far as the eye can see. Roadworks lane closure signs are universally ignored by 99% of drivers - including truckers - until they suddenly find that their lane has run out.
The number of traffic police has been dropping for years. A parliamentary question revealed that the numbers reduced from 5635 in March 2010, to 4356 in March 2014.
This is what makes it more amusing when all the special people come out with, 'The police are more interested in speeding motorists'. It's actually the complete opposite.
There are a few reasons:
Risk / harm: Road deaths and harm have been reducing for a long time. There are other areas of risk in policing which require greater numbers.
Strategy: The New Labour Government were extremely keen to have the police focus on crime. Reductions, detections and the like. This included vehicle crime, burglaries etc etc. These were the areas the police were held to account and thus where senior officers would place their resources.
Funding: Traffic officers are really expensive.
There's graph I've seen before, which I'm not sure about the source, but the data is roughly inline with the parliamentary question data over those 4 years, so the preceding years could well be accurate, too.
This is what makes it more amusing when all the special people come out with, 'The police are more interested in speeding motorists'. It's actually the complete opposite.
There are a few reasons:
Risk / harm: Road deaths and harm have been reducing for a long time. There are other areas of risk in policing which require greater numbers.
Strategy: The New Labour Government were extremely keen to have the police focus on crime. Reductions, detections and the like. This included vehicle crime, burglaries etc etc. These were the areas the police were held to account and thus where senior officers would place their resources.
Funding: Traffic officers are really expensive.
There's graph I've seen before, which I'm not sure about the source, but the data is roughly inline with the parliamentary question data over those 4 years, so the preceding years could well be accurate, too.
It appears to me that the most obvious differences regarding poor driving now and 'then' are predominently related to mobile phone and satnav use, in that order. Poor driving otherwise seems pretty much the same to me.
In an attemnpt to retain my licence I have to drive significantly slower than I did twenty years ago (there's no other reason). I would be delighted to see no Police or cameras on the road and take my chances.
In an attemnpt to retain my licence I have to drive significantly slower than I did twenty years ago (there's no other reason). I would be delighted to see no Police or cameras on the road and take my chances.
Traditional policing of traffic rather than by remote camera interpreters, is now so rare on any road in my experience that I actually remarked on it when I saw it being done before Christmas here: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I didn't see any during 1000 miles over Christmas, presumably when the courts were closed and more boots on the ground would have been available for deployment overtly?
TVP roads unit dealt with an MLM today though, so there is hope... https://twitter.com/tvprp?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7...
I didn't see any during 1000 miles over Christmas, presumably when the courts were closed and more boots on the ground would have been available for deployment overtly?
TVP roads unit dealt with an MLM today though, so there is hope... https://twitter.com/tvprp?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7...
All that jazz said:
Definitely notice the poor driving standards on motorways now in particular. I'm a night trucker and I'd say that around 50% of the traffic now (not counting trucks) just sit in lane 2 regardless of what's going on around them nor if the motorway in front is empty as far as the eye can see. Roadworks lane closure signs are universally ignored by 99% of drivers - including truckers - until they suddenly find that their lane has run out.
I live in East Anglia and have family in South Wales and drive home about four or five times a year, leaving East Anglia about 7 pm so the roads are quiet. I cruise about 75, and just bimble along on the inside lane, pulling out to pass the numerous lorries, but I always pull back in. As you say, the amount of people just sitting there in the middle lane, lost in their own little world is amazing, so much so I'd say people pulling back into the inside lane (in cars) is in the minority.As others have said, I too, almost never see a marked police car in the 300 miles each way I travel
Devil2575 said:
On a general point does the likelihood of getting caught discourage criminal behaviour? I suspect that most people don't commit criminal behaviour because they don't wish too. It has always been fairly easy to get away with bad driving in this country. When I first got my drivers licence back in 1992 the risk of getting caught didn't stop me or my mates driving like complete tools.
Standards getting worse? I can't count the number of times this has been suggested on PH. It pops up regularly and is almost always supported by anecdote a plenty from the usual suspects.
Every time I read it I ask the same question: What actual evidence have you got to support the assertion that standards are getting worse?
We have some of the safest roads in the world. The KSI stats have been on a downward trend for decades and the last time I heard the number of insurance claims was actually declining as well. None of this would point to a decline in driving standards. I don't much care for anecdotes either, they're not good evidence and so should not be treated as if they are.
There are those on PH who have created a narrative to do with speed cameras and how their use has ultimately lead to a decline in driving standards. I think these people see what they want to see. I also think that the views that "Everything is going to the dogs" and "things were better in my days" have been around for thousands of years and should be treated with equal skepticism.
Nail. Head. Direct hit.Standards getting worse? I can't count the number of times this has been suggested on PH. It pops up regularly and is almost always supported by anecdote a plenty from the usual suspects.
Every time I read it I ask the same question: What actual evidence have you got to support the assertion that standards are getting worse?
We have some of the safest roads in the world. The KSI stats have been on a downward trend for decades and the last time I heard the number of insurance claims was actually declining as well. None of this would point to a decline in driving standards. I don't much care for anecdotes either, they're not good evidence and so should not be treated as if they are.
There are those on PH who have created a narrative to do with speed cameras and how their use has ultimately lead to a decline in driving standards. I think these people see what they want to see. I also think that the views that "Everything is going to the dogs" and "things were better in my days" have been around for thousands of years and should be treated with equal skepticism.
Travelling as passenger a lot more than I used to, I am becoming increasingly sick of the driver I am sitting next to (and brother in law is the worst case) ranting and raving, essentially to himself, about what he sees as "bad driving." His favourite gripe is overtaking (he'd sit behind an ox cart rather than pull out and pass it). Nobody, in BiL's eyes, overtakes properly - they do it too fast, they do it too slow, the just cut him up (when pulling back in a good 100 yards in front), they do it on "blind bends" that are actually a quarter of a mile in front, and so on.
Surprising as it may seem to my regular readers, I rarely say anything and just let him get on with it. Except for once, near Stourhead, when he said "this road has a lot of bends on it - there should be a 50 limit"
I took in a breath and let go. It must be a long drive from Mere to Chippenham when your passenger is telling you the finer details of his views on speed limit setting in the UK...
FurtiveFreddy said:
I hardly ever see marked traffic cars on the M4/M3/M25 these days.
Sometimes I'll see an unmarked car who's pulled someone or unmarked non-traffic car on their way to a job.
My personal opinion is that marked cars sitting at 70mph in lane 1 as they often used to do can cause big tailbacks and more frustration, so I'm glad they are rare now.
If unmarked traffic cars are targetting the unsafe & inconsiderate drivers and leaving those of us who want to press on alone, then that is also a good thing.
On the whole, I prefer having to deal with a few fixed cameras than masses of marked/unmarked Police on my routes, because I'll still have to contend with bad drivers either way. They don't stop driving badly just because there are more Police around.
If you drive the Surrey stretch of those motorways, you may spot a marked car.Sometimes I'll see an unmarked car who's pulled someone or unmarked non-traffic car on their way to a job.
My personal opinion is that marked cars sitting at 70mph in lane 1 as they often used to do can cause big tailbacks and more frustration, so I'm glad they are rare now.
If unmarked traffic cars are targetting the unsafe & inconsiderate drivers and leaving those of us who want to press on alone, then that is also a good thing.
On the whole, I prefer having to deal with a few fixed cameras than masses of marked/unmarked Police on my routes, because I'll still have to contend with bad drivers either way. They don't stop driving badly just because there are more Police around.
To give you an idea, my shift put out 1 double crewed motorway car for the East side of the county. This covers the M25 and M23 generally, they can also be sent to jobs off the motorway and to other parts of the county, The Northern side will put out 2 motorway cars, they usually consist of one being double crewed. They cover the M25, M3, A3, A31, A331 and like the eastern team, can be deployed off the motorway and to "Divisional" jobs.
The rest of the team, is used as cover for divisional roads, which is normally a bike and a car (maybe 2 cars if we are lucky). We have a huge area to cover and it is likely to get bigger, as we get more involved with Sussex RPU.
As well as general duties, we also have operations and taskings to do complete (HGV op recently, speed enforcement sites, drink drive campaign, burglary campgain, the ongoing migrants issue too, all just a few of the extra stuff).
Driving standards in the UK are generally atrocious. I currently spend a lot of time in a van and manage to get home on the M25, A2/M2 and M26/M20 spending most of my time at 70 on the two inside lanes. The art of the overtake is dead and so most spend their whole time in lanes 3 or 4 / 2 or 3.
How often do you see overtakes on A roads now? Even if the offending driver is dawdling at 20mph with miles of empty road to their front.
Coming out of London the MLM inevitably is a black person (strike me down but I shall not be PC) and it makes me wonder if they just transferred their licence over as they clearly have no clue. Empty road to the front and queues of traffic trying to overtake on the right. If I was not on my own I would have taken pictures each time of each one. Possibly nothing to do with their roots and just coincidence (PC tick). I pass them on the inside and look across and they are just staring to their front oblivious to the jams they are causing.
Two morons on the M25 last week near junction 9 (?) Reigate. One tried to pull into the merging lane from the M25 as I pulled onto the M25 until I flashed him a few times from the inside lane and the green cats eyes ran out. The other was just after by the M23 junction. He was pulling off and decided to pull into the hard shoulder but continue as normal until I saw someone in the heavy traffic flash him to show him he could get back onto the motorway along with everyone else.
Pip
How often do you see overtakes on A roads now? Even if the offending driver is dawdling at 20mph with miles of empty road to their front.
Coming out of London the MLM inevitably is a black person (strike me down but I shall not be PC) and it makes me wonder if they just transferred their licence over as they clearly have no clue. Empty road to the front and queues of traffic trying to overtake on the right. If I was not on my own I would have taken pictures each time of each one. Possibly nothing to do with their roots and just coincidence (PC tick). I pass them on the inside and look across and they are just staring to their front oblivious to the jams they are causing.
Two morons on the M25 last week near junction 9 (?) Reigate. One tried to pull into the merging lane from the M25 as I pulled onto the M25 until I flashed him a few times from the inside lane and the green cats eyes ran out. The other was just after by the M23 junction. He was pulling off and decided to pull into the hard shoulder but continue as normal until I saw someone in the heavy traffic flash him to show him he could get back onto the motorway along with everyone else.
Pip
There were test done on whether advertising that there are unmarked police patrols or a marked unit on patrol caused drivers to change behaviour, and it came down firmly on the latter. They put up signs - they are still there after some years - on a dual carriageway A road and there was a noticeable slowing of cars for a mile or so. Then back to normal. Put a mobile unit with blues, twos and ugly officers in it, and the change lasted much longer. Drivers tended to pull out of the outer lane for the latter, but not for the former.
Most of the time in my old force there is currently one 'traffic unit' on patrol at any one time over the force area apart from a few miles of motorway where there is one which should work with another force, but doesn't I'm told.
There is still two units dedicated to a mobile speed camera for a 2400 sized force. That, I was told, was likely to be halved. Given their ineffectiveness in all tests, I would assume that's like to be halved. Possibly has been.
Whether standards have deteriorated is difficult to tell, but the main response to a marked car is for traffic to slow and pull left. A bloke I meet occasionally was hit by an HGV in the outside lane when, presumably, the driver saw a parked traffic car on the M23 when it pulled sharply to the left. The question as to why the bloke was in the middle lane was one I wanted to ask but I was kicked by my wife.
The HGV driver was prosecuted but the car driver wasn't.
Most of the time in my old force there is currently one 'traffic unit' on patrol at any one time over the force area apart from a few miles of motorway where there is one which should work with another force, but doesn't I'm told.
There is still two units dedicated to a mobile speed camera for a 2400 sized force. That, I was told, was likely to be halved. Given their ineffectiveness in all tests, I would assume that's like to be halved. Possibly has been.
Whether standards have deteriorated is difficult to tell, but the main response to a marked car is for traffic to slow and pull left. A bloke I meet occasionally was hit by an HGV in the outside lane when, presumably, the driver saw a parked traffic car on the M23 when it pulled sharply to the left. The question as to why the bloke was in the middle lane was one I wanted to ask but I was kicked by my wife.
The HGV driver was prosecuted but the car driver wasn't.
Just a few points, that nobody will address as usual
1. Was the motorway historically awash with coppers so that any and all instances of bad driving were immediately caught and dealt with?
2. If you want loads of traffic police back, then how much more tax do you want to pay to cover it? Personally, I'm offering to pay £0 extra, if I have to pay more tax, I'd rather it went on other more pressing needs
3. Are you prepared to accept that you might be pulled more frequently / get points etc if there is a sudden upturn in Trafpol?
4. I never used to see many marked or unmarked cars on the motorways, I now see similar amounts. I'm quite happy with that
5. That graph is very cleverly mapped on the axes to make the reduction from 100% - 60% look like it's nearly gone down to 0%.
1. Was the motorway historically awash with coppers so that any and all instances of bad driving were immediately caught and dealt with?
2. If you want loads of traffic police back, then how much more tax do you want to pay to cover it? Personally, I'm offering to pay £0 extra, if I have to pay more tax, I'd rather it went on other more pressing needs
3. Are you prepared to accept that you might be pulled more frequently / get points etc if there is a sudden upturn in Trafpol?
4. I never used to see many marked or unmarked cars on the motorways, I now see similar amounts. I'm quite happy with that
5. That graph is very cleverly mapped on the axes to make the reduction from 100% - 60% look like it's nearly gone down to 0%.
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