Discussion
I parked in a local car park, paid £1 for 4 hours and thought no more of it.
A month later, I get a letter from AS Parking that says I have failed to pay and now owe £100! I have never had a ticket affixed to my car and this is the first I know of it. The letter says that as a month has passed, there is no appeal open to me and I must pay the full £100, as opposed to a lesser amount for paying within 14 days.
I email them and ask for evidence, as I have never had a ticket. The reply with 4 pictures which show that whilst a ticket is displayed, it is partially obscured by the tinted edge of the screen. You can still read a ticket in this position, if you look down from the top of the screen. There are no pictures showing a PNC was affixed to my car.
I have heard how zealous local parking attendants are in Peranporth, so always make sure I pay and display. I watched them issue a ticket at 9am on Christmas Day, to the only car in the car park, when he stopped and let his dog out for a few minutes. They also issue tickets to anyone with a tyre on the lines marking out bays, no matter how slight.
It appears the ticket slipped down a little when I closed the door, but it was still clear a ticket had been purchased. If I accept a PNC (begrudgingly), am I not entitled to a chance to pay a lesser amount, for paying within 14 days?
I intend putting in an independent appeal but any help or advice would be much appreciated.
A month later, I get a letter from AS Parking that says I have failed to pay and now owe £100! I have never had a ticket affixed to my car and this is the first I know of it. The letter says that as a month has passed, there is no appeal open to me and I must pay the full £100, as opposed to a lesser amount for paying within 14 days.
I email them and ask for evidence, as I have never had a ticket. The reply with 4 pictures which show that whilst a ticket is displayed, it is partially obscured by the tinted edge of the screen. You can still read a ticket in this position, if you look down from the top of the screen. There are no pictures showing a PNC was affixed to my car.
I have heard how zealous local parking attendants are in Peranporth, so always make sure I pay and display. I watched them issue a ticket at 9am on Christmas Day, to the only car in the car park, when he stopped and let his dog out for a few minutes. They also issue tickets to anyone with a tyre on the lines marking out bays, no matter how slight.
It appears the ticket slipped down a little when I closed the door, but it was still clear a ticket had been purchased. If I accept a PNC (begrudgingly), am I not entitled to a chance to pay a lesser amount, for paying within 14 days?
I intend putting in an independent appeal but any help or advice would be much appreciated.
e21Mark said:
Having checked out Money Saving.com and a few searches on AS Parking, it seems they are most certainly chancers looking to make a quick buck. I'll certainly be fighting this in any way I can. Initially, their fine of £100 far exceeds any potential loss and so appears to be illegal.
Beavis v Parking Eye knocked the £100 loss challenge on the head unfortunately, and ASP are part of the IPC so will work on the contractual £100 charge model, rather than £100 for a breach of terms. "You can stay more than you pay for, but it will cost you £100", rather than "non-payment of time on site is a breach of terms, and therefore we will charge you £100) You can still challenge on whether the signage was adequate to form a contract, or whether they even had sufficient authority from the landowner to issue or enforce the ticket. Primarily though it sounds like the notice to keeper is not compliant with POFA to enforce keeper liability...
To be honest though, as they are part of the IPC, it's a closed network of the lowest operators in the business. You can appeal on perfectly valid grounds, but it will still be thrown out by the kangaroo court system they call an appeals service.
S11Steve said:
e21Mark said:
Having checked out Money Saving.com and a few searches on AS Parking, it seems they are most certainly chancers looking to make a quick buck. I'll certainly be fighting this in any way I can. Initially, their fine of £100 far exceeds any potential loss and so appears to be illegal.
Beavis v Parking Eye knocked the £100 loss challenge on the head unfortunately, and ASP are part of the IPC so will work on the contractual £100 charge model, rather than £100 for a breach of terms. "You can stay more than you pay for, but it will cost you £100", rather than "non-payment of time on site is a breach of terms, and therefore we will charge you £100) You can still challenge on whether the signage was adequate to form a contract, or whether they even had sufficient authority from the landowner to issue or enforce the ticket. Primarily though it sounds like the notice to keeper is not compliant with POFA to enforce keeper liability...
To be honest though, as they are part of the IPC, it's a closed network of the lowest operators in the business. You can appeal on perfectly valid grounds, but it will still be thrown out by the kangaroo court system they call an appeals service.
I'd go back, purchase another ticked and place it in the same position as the original then retake the photo showing it can be read it's just the photo is staged.
I may be wrong, but I don't think Beavis applies to pay & display car parks.
The legislation permits pay & display operators to seek the loss (the parking charge) plus the cost of doing so. I don't think anyone has challenged the cost in a higher court yet.
I wonder of the charge notice separates out the different elements.
The legislation permits pay & display operators to seek the loss (the parking charge) plus the cost of doing so. I don't think anyone has challenged the cost in a higher court yet.
I wonder of the charge notice separates out the different elements.
PurpleMoonlight said:
I may be wrong, but I don't think Beavis applies to pay & display car parks.
The legislation permits pay & display operators to seek the loss (the parking charge) plus the cost of doing so. I don't think anyone has challenged the cost in a higher court yet.
I wonder of the charge notice separates out the different elements.
The parking industry are heralding the Beavis case as a their silver bullet to enforce charges, but yes, it is arguable that it only applies to certain types of car park, however the £100 charge alluded to in the judgement is being quoted as "reasonable", and commercially justified. It's not impossible to argue the GPEOL, but there are still other ways to challenge the legitimacy of them.The legislation permits pay & display operators to seek the loss (the parking charge) plus the cost of doing so. I don't think anyone has challenged the cost in a higher court yet.
I wonder of the charge notice separates out the different elements.
Well my appeal was knocked back by the supposedly independent appeal process. I wasn't even afforded a chance to pay the lesser amount for quick payment and they just ignored the fact that no ticket was even affixed to my car. They said that I was liable because the ticket had slipped down the dash. They made no mention of the fine.
Assuming they're now going to come after me for £100, will it be enforced by the County Courts and can I fight my case there?
Assuming they're now going to come after me for £100, will it be enforced by the County Courts and can I fight my case there?
Chances are that you will receive a series of letters from various debt collectors, but relatively few IPC companies will take it to court, especially after an appeal. On the slim chance it does end up in a county court, then you have lots of opportunity to challenge the issues in front of a legitimate court.
The kangaroo court appeal will not stand then in good favour with the judge, but from experience, the IPC very rarely take these to court as it risks exposing their sham system.
For now, I'd put up with the letters, reply to each one with a simple letter staying that you debt the debt, and for then to refer the matter back to their current.
I'm itching for an IPC court summons, but they are not forthcoming, despite my taunting of them.
The kangaroo court appeal will not stand then in good favour with the judge, but from experience, the IPC very rarely take these to court as it risks exposing their sham system.
For now, I'd put up with the letters, reply to each one with a simple letter staying that you debt the debt, and for then to refer the matter back to their current.
I'm itching for an IPC court summons, but they are not forthcoming, despite my taunting of them.
You'll have a long wait because the IPC is an ATA (i.e. trade union ) rival of the BPA, not a PPC. It won't be bringing any cases against motorists. I agree about the kangaroo court though. That is the IAS: their equivalent of POPLA, but hopelessly biased against the motorist. Not surprising given the unhealthy conflict of interest. The principal solicitors at a certain firm which acts for PPCs are also directors of the ATA for those same PPCs. The offices of both are just 3 doors apart in the same courtyard in a Cheshire town. And guess who picks the assessors that decide the appeals.
OP, POPLA/IAS decisions are not binding on the motorist. The PPC/landowner will have to take you to court if you decline to pay their invoice. Perranporth is a known problem area and is almost as bad as Fistral Beach used to be before PE was kicked out of the latter. Given the PPC involved my guess is that it is this car park.
http://www.perranporthgardenscharities.org.uk/car-...
If I'm right and you still have the ticket you might consider writing to the charity trustees (enclosing a copy of the ticket) to see if they can get the PPC invoice cancelled. The PPC won't give a stuff as it's only interested in making money but your argument to the trustees might be that it's a shoddy way to treat a visitor to the town and doesn't reflect well on its PR image.
OP, POPLA/IAS decisions are not binding on the motorist. The PPC/landowner will have to take you to court if you decline to pay their invoice. Perranporth is a known problem area and is almost as bad as Fistral Beach used to be before PE was kicked out of the latter. Given the PPC involved my guess is that it is this car park.
http://www.perranporthgardenscharities.org.uk/car-...
If I'm right and you still have the ticket you might consider writing to the charity trustees (enclosing a copy of the ticket) to see if they can get the PPC invoice cancelled. The PPC won't give a stuff as it's only interested in making money but your argument to the trustees might be that it's a shoddy way to treat a visitor to the town and doesn't reflect well on its PR image.
Sadly I don't have the ticket. Because there was no PCN affixed to my car I had no reason to keep it. Despite asking, they were not able to give me any proof of the PCN ever being affixed either.
Obviously if no PCN are affixed there are no lesser payments made for paying within 14 days, by people who accept these fines. That's pretty lucrative I'm sure.
Obviously if no PCN are affixed there are no lesser payments made for paying within 14 days, by people who accept these fines. That's pretty lucrative I'm sure.
e21Mark said:
Sadly I don't have the ticket. Because there was no PCN affixed to my car I had no reason to keep it. Despite asking, they were not able to give me any proof of the PCN ever being affixed either.
Obviously if no PCN are affixed there are no lesser payments made for paying within 14 days, by people who accept these fines. That's pretty lucrative I'm sure.
As far as I am aware there is no legal requirement for them to affix anything to your vehicle at the point of the claimed breach of contract.Obviously if no PCN are affixed there are no lesser payments made for paying within 14 days, by people who accept these fines. That's pretty lucrative I'm sure.
SVTRick said:
Tell them to jog on then if they cant show a charge notice issued, I suppose they have photos of the vehicle parked?
Do you have a witness to you purchasing said ticket?
Nominate your mate from Poland who was driving as its the driver who is liable
if its a private firm.
They don't have to. I got a 'fine' for overstaying in a Maccys car park when I got the time wrong picking someone up. I slid my seat back and had a nap overstaying the 2 hour limit. No ticket as they have ANPR clocking you in and out. Didn't pay. Told them to prove it was me driving and that I was under no obligation to either admit or name the person that was.Do you have a witness to you purchasing said ticket?
Nominate your mate from Poland who was driving as its the driver who is liable
if its a private firm.
No-one's yet mentioned in this thread that the contract for parking on private land is between the driver and the company, not the vehicle's registered keeper so whilst the OP has received the notice, the onus will be on the parking company to prove it was actually him driving the car at that time. OP is neither under obligation to admit it was him, nor name another party. In which case, it'll be borderline impossible for any parking company to levy a penalty.
What car owners should do in this case is reply to the notice letter acknowledging receipt of the penalty charge notice but stating you are but the registered keeper. The contract for parking will be between yourselves and the person driving my car that day so please direct your correspondance to that person and that you will enter into no further discussion on the matter. They will send several letters threatening court etc but it will go away eventually.
Edited by E36GUY on Monday 25th January 12:24
Edited by E36GUY on Monday 25th January 12:25
E36GUY said:
They don't have to. I got a 'fine' for overstaying in a Maccys car park when I got the time wrong picking someone up. I slid my seat back and had a nap overstaying the 2 hour limit. No ticket as they have ANPR clocking you in and out. Didn't pay. Told them to prove it was me driving and that I was under no obligation to either admit or name the person that was.
No-one's yet mentioned in this thread that the contract for parking on private land is between the driver and the company, not the vehicle's registered keeper so whilst the OP has received the notice, the onus will be on the parking company to prove it was actually him driving the car at that time. OP is neither under obligation to admit it was him, nor name another party. In which case, it'll be borderline impossible for any parking company to levy a penalty.
What car owners should do in this case is reply to the notice letter acknowledging receipt of the penalty charge notice but stating you are but the registered keeper. The contract for parking will be between yourselves and the person driving my car that day so please direct your correspondance to that person and that you will enter into no further discussion on the matter. They will send several letters threatening court etc but it will go away eventually.
I assume this happened before October 2012 when POFA legislation came into force. Since then, the keeper can be held liable for private parking invoices, and Parking Eye in particular are currently issuing around 3500 CCJs per year to keepers for unpaid tickets.No-one's yet mentioned in this thread that the contract for parking on private land is between the driver and the company, not the vehicle's registered keeper so whilst the OP has received the notice, the onus will be on the parking company to prove it was actually him driving the car at that time. OP is neither under obligation to admit it was him, nor name another party. In which case, it'll be borderline impossible for any parking company to levy a penalty.
What car owners should do in this case is reply to the notice letter acknowledging receipt of the penalty charge notice but stating you are but the registered keeper. The contract for parking will be between yourselves and the person driving my car that day so please direct your correspondance to that person and that you will enter into no further discussion on the matter. They will send several letters threatening court etc but it will go away eventually.
They can still be ebaten, but burying your head in the sand is no longer a viable option.
S11Steve said:
I assume this happened before October 2012 when POFA legislation came into force. Since then, the keeper can be held liable for private parking invoices, and Parking Eye in particular are currently issuing around 3500 CCJs per year to keepers for unpaid tickets.
They can still be ebaten, but burying your head in the sand is no longer a viable option.
TBH, I can't recall. It may well have been.They can still be ebaten, but burying your head in the sand is no longer a viable option.
Notwithstanding, how could these regulations hold the keeper responsible? When one drives onto a private parking area, gernally there should be the parking terms and conditions displayed on various signage. These terms form the basis of a contract between driver and parking company to which the driver accepts by their actions by parking there. If you overstay you have breached that contract and a fee can been applied. If the car's keeper is not the driver, then how can the keeper possibly have entered into or broken the terms of the contract?
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