Discussion
A liitle help for the missus if you can please, I've googled but most of what I've found is a few years old so it would be good to know that I'm giving her half decent advice.
She has just today recieved a letter of intention to prosecute from Essex police dated 11/04/2016 for an offence commited on the 20/12/2015. She changed the V5 address early Febuary when she moved from her family home into mine, the family still live at the old address and never recieved a letter.
I'm saying to return the form naming her as the driver but with a cover note saying that the notice cannot be acted on because it is time expired.
The weird thing is she's already recieved another one last month for a separate offence on the same stretch in Febuary.
Any comments would be appreciated, even if they are that she should probably chill out a bit with the accelerator pedal
She has just today recieved a letter of intention to prosecute from Essex police dated 11/04/2016 for an offence commited on the 20/12/2015. She changed the V5 address early Febuary when she moved from her family home into mine, the family still live at the old address and never recieved a letter.
I'm saying to return the form naming her as the driver but with a cover note saying that the notice cannot be acted on because it is time expired.
The weird thing is she's already recieved another one last month for a separate offence on the same stretch in Febuary.
Any comments would be appreciated, even if they are that she should probably chill out a bit with the accelerator pedal
Far more complicated than it might appear.
Remember only the first NIP needs to be sent within 14 days and that is deemed delivered if it is sent 1st class.
It would seem odd that the previous address received neither the original NIP or any reminders.
I'm assuming your SO had possession of the V5 when the offence was committed (if it was leased it's unlikely she had the V5) and that the address on it was correct at the time (so she was living at the address on the V5 at the time of offence).
On the V5 there should be a DocRef date - this is the last time the details were changed, that should show the change in February.
As above, Pepipoo will give you better advice - but it is extremely rare for a NIP to not be sent out within those first 14 days.
It will have been sent out somewhere - it's trying to work out where and why it plus the reminders never made it to that address.
Remember only the first NIP needs to be sent within 14 days and that is deemed delivered if it is sent 1st class.
It would seem odd that the previous address received neither the original NIP or any reminders.
I'm assuming your SO had possession of the V5 when the offence was committed (if it was leased it's unlikely she had the V5) and that the address on it was correct at the time (so she was living at the address on the V5 at the time of offence).
On the V5 there should be a DocRef date - this is the last time the details were changed, that should show the change in February.
As above, Pepipoo will give you better advice - but it is extremely rare for a NIP to not be sent out within those first 14 days.
It will have been sent out somewhere - it's trying to work out where and why it plus the reminders never made it to that address.
Stoofa said:
Far more complicated than it might appear.
Remember only the first NIP needs to be sent within 14 days and that is deemed delivered if it is sent 1st class.
NIPs served by recorded / registered post are deemed to be served, irrespective whether they are delivered or not.Remember only the first NIP needs to be sent within 14 days and that is deemed delivered if it is sent 1st class.
NIPs served by 1st class post are presumed to have been served, but this presumption is rebuttable. Proving that a document wasn't delivered may well be the tricky bit, though.
Also, a NIP needs to be posted in such time that it would be served within 14 days of the alleged offence ( within the normal coursed of post).
For 1st class mail, the 'normal course of post' is considered to be two business days. Possibly a moot point as far as this thread is concerned, but it does mean that a NIP posted on day 14 couldn't possibly be served within time.
Edited by SS2. on Thursday 14th April 07:37
SS2. said:
IPs served by recorded / registered post are deemed to be served, irrespective whether they are delivered or not.
NIPs served by 1st class post are presumed to have been served, but this presumption is rebuttable. Proving that a document wasn't delivered may well be the tricky bit, though.
Also, a NIP needs to be posted in such time that it would be served within 14 days of the alleged offence ( within the normal coursed of post).
For 1st class mail, the 'normal course of post' is considered to be two business days. Possibly a moot point as far as this thread is concerned, but it does mean that a NIP posted on day 14 couldn't possibly be served within time.
Looking at the dates, 20/12/15, there was also the christmas bank holidays to contend with. As I have recently had a long discussion with a couple of London Authorities over Bus Lane penalties, it took 9 days from the date of contravention to us receiving the PCN, then a further 2-3 days for us to get the cheque raised and returned, by which time they received it, the 14 day discount period had elapsed. There is absolutely no reasonableness applied to the dates to allow for bank holidays.NIPs served by 1st class post are presumed to have been served, but this presumption is rebuttable. Proving that a document wasn't delivered may well be the tricky bit, though.
Also, a NIP needs to be posted in such time that it would be served within 14 days of the alleged offence ( within the normal coursed of post).
For 1st class mail, the 'normal course of post' is considered to be two business days. Possibly a moot point as far as this thread is concerned, but it does mean that a NIP posted on day 14 couldn't possibly be served within time.
Edited by SS2. on Thursday 14th April 07:37
S11Steve said:
Looking at the dates, 20/12/15, there was also the christmas bank holidays to contend with. As I have recently had a long discussion with a couple of London Authorities over Bus Lane penalties, it took 9 days from the date of contravention to us receiving the PCN, then a further 2-3 days for us to get the cheque raised and returned, by which time they received it, the 14 day discount period had elapsed. There is absolutely no reasonableness applied to the dates to allow for bank holidays.
How does it take 3 days to write a cheque?Doesn't mention FP so are we to assume the offence was outside (naughty naughty) of that or they have sent requests for driver and been ignored. That's my betting.
She is probably best calling up and asking whats gone on since Dec 15 before deciding what to do.
List below are exceptions from the 14 days and if thats her defence you need to pay for legal advice I would say.
Exceptions
Notice of intended prosecution is not required where
a full or provisional fixed penalty notice has been given or fixed; or
if you were knowingly involved in an accident at the time
If the notice of intended prosecution is received late it may still be valid and you should seek advice on this.
There is also an exemption where the police could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained the name and address of the accused in time for service of the summons or notice within the 14 day period, or the accused
She is probably best calling up and asking whats gone on since Dec 15 before deciding what to do.
List below are exceptions from the 14 days and if thats her defence you need to pay for legal advice I would say.
Exceptions
Notice of intended prosecution is not required where
a full or provisional fixed penalty notice has been given or fixed; or
if you were knowingly involved in an accident at the time
If the notice of intended prosecution is received late it may still be valid and you should seek advice on this.
There is also an exemption where the police could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained the name and address of the accused in time for service of the summons or notice within the 14 day period, or the accused
surveyor_101 said:
Doesn't mention FP so are we to assume the offence was outside (naughty naughty) of that.
Not at all. The NIP doesn't have to specify what action is being considered, merely that some action is being considered. surveyor_101 said:
List below are exceptions from the 14 days and if thats her defence you need to pay for legal advice I would say...
You've listed (in part) the statutory exceptions. A notice served outwith 14 days isn't an exception as such, it's a failure by the police to satisfy the requirements of s.1 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988. If proven, a failure to serve the notice as required by statute should be a bar to prosecution (of any person) of the offence alleged on the notice.
s p a c e m a n said:
A liitle help for the missus if you can please......She has just today recieved a letter of intention to prosecute from Essex police dated 11/04/2016 for an offence commited on the 20/12/2015.
Hmmm....playing Devils advocate, something sounds suspicious here! The date of the (original) offence was 20/12/2015.
s p a c e m a n said:
.....She changed the V5 address early Febuary when she moved from her family home into mine.......
So the assumption is that she was still officially living at her parents address at the time of the offence, and during the period that the original NIP should have been delivered.s p a c e m a n said:
....the family still live at the old address and never recieved a letter.
But.....The family never received a letter? - Not "the missus" never received a letter?If she was staying at the OP's address prior to actually living there, then all of her mail would go to her parents house still, and surely she would collect it from there every now and again?
On that assumption, it would make more sense to say that "she" never received the letter, rather than the family never received the letter.
From December 2015 to April 2016, would the Police only send out one letter about the original offence to the Parents address? - Especially in light of the 28 days to reply period?
Surely they would have followed up the original NIP in some way earlier that 5 months later?
On the face of it, it does sound possible that the original NIP could have been ignored or overlooked, and now an excuse has been found to try to argue against it. (By the same token, it's just as feasible that the original NIP was lost in the Christmas post and the Police have failed to follow it up earlier!)
s p a c e m a n said:
The weird thing is she's already recieved another one last month for a separate offence on the same stretch in Febuary.
The second offence has probably highlighted the fact that they have never received a response to the first offence when they checked their records!As I say, I'm just playing Devil's advocate (too much watching re-runs of Colombo!
), and I'm sure they'll drop the original offence (unless of course they sent the original NIP by recorded / registered post - If that's the case then it could get a tad complicated!)I've got an urge to watch some Columbo now, haven't seen that for years. The nip is for a 46 in a 40 and it's just that it's such a big gap from time of offence to receiving the letter I thought it would be rude not to try it, why take the points if you don't have to. A letter definitely never arrived at her family address, her mother would be on that and tearing her a new one down the phone within minutes of it hitting the doormat. Thanks for the comments so far, will have a look at pepipoo over the weekend
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