Police mistakes.
Discussion
My son was involved in a RTC whilst riding his bicycle.
It's clear the police investigation looked at the wrong details, namely the direction my son was travelling, this only came to light at the inquest,, I was in shock, I didn't ask for the inquest to be adjourned and the judge quickly brought proceedings to a finish. This was 13th May this year.
I've seen the police papers on the investigation and at no time do they ask searching questions of the driver of the vehicle that hit my son, assuming my son had come straight across the road and so giving driver no time to react.
Those details are entirely wrong, my son was travelling towards the direction of the driver.
It's clear the investigation focused on my sons actions which now turn out to be completely different from how the police viewed the collision.
My son lost his life, I suspect the drivers speed was the real reason for this collision and so can anyone give me some basic advice as to what I can do about this as I feel the police investigation was lacking in understanding the basics of this crash and the investigation a total farce.
What can I do now the inquest has been held.
It's rather odd as I now have the (Family liaison officer) contacting me asking if I want to see these papers again,
He knows this is wrong!
What are my options,
My own feeling says the police need to re investigate this case, can I get the case reviewed.
Thanks
It's clear the police investigation looked at the wrong details, namely the direction my son was travelling, this only came to light at the inquest,, I was in shock, I didn't ask for the inquest to be adjourned and the judge quickly brought proceedings to a finish. This was 13th May this year.
I've seen the police papers on the investigation and at no time do they ask searching questions of the driver of the vehicle that hit my son, assuming my son had come straight across the road and so giving driver no time to react.
Those details are entirely wrong, my son was travelling towards the direction of the driver.
It's clear the investigation focused on my sons actions which now turn out to be completely different from how the police viewed the collision.
My son lost his life, I suspect the drivers speed was the real reason for this collision and so can anyone give me some basic advice as to what I can do about this as I feel the police investigation was lacking in understanding the basics of this crash and the investigation a total farce.
What can I do now the inquest has been held.
It's rather odd as I now have the (Family liaison officer) contacting me asking if I want to see these papers again,
He knows this is wrong!
What are my options,
My own feeling says the police need to re investigate this case, can I get the case reviewed.
Thanks
Perhaps you have already been in contact with support groups for families of those killed in RTAs but if you haven't it could be worthwhile. I don't know any specifically but a quick google brought this one up that seemed to offer support and also help with getting justice.
http://www.roadpeace.org/change/
http://www.roadpeace.org/change/
Fatal collision investigations are quite repetitive and prescribed in terms of how they are investigated. This is a good summary: https://www.app.college.police.uk/app-content/road...
Your route to get some answers and have mistakes addressed should go through the force's discipline and complaints department or the IPCC: https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints
Did you have a Family Liaison Officer?
Your route to get some answers and have mistakes addressed should go through the force's discipline and complaints department or the IPCC: https://www.ipcc.gov.uk/complaints
Did you have a Family Liaison Officer?
ClassiChimi said:
My son lost his life
I really hope someone here can advise you what to do. I'm sitting here with my son next to me watching a film. I cannot imagine him not being here.
Inquests sometimes,do not reflect the amount of investigation that have actually taken place,so you may be under the impression (and I am in no way saying that they have not) that obvious errors have been made.Presuming that you have had a good experience with your FLO,have you expressed your concerns with them as this should be your first port of call.
They in turn should document your conversation in their log book (this will have been started at the point that they were deployed) and feed this back to both the OIC (officer in charge) for the collision and most importantly,the SIO (senior investigating officer).
Write down all of your concerns in bullet points,take a copy to avoid forgetting what you have written and hand this to your FLO,to avoid anything getting lost in translation.
The FLO is there to help you and you need help.Use them-even if they have exited as your FLO at this stage.
Failing the above,a decent specialist solicitor will advise you best.
They in turn should document your conversation in their log book (this will have been started at the point that they were deployed) and feed this back to both the OIC (officer in charge) for the collision and most importantly,the SIO (senior investigating officer).
Write down all of your concerns in bullet points,take a copy to avoid forgetting what you have written and hand this to your FLO,to avoid anything getting lost in translation.
The FLO is there to help you and you need help.Use them-even if they have exited as your FLO at this stage.
Failing the above,a decent specialist solicitor will advise you best.
Edited by Billyray911 on Monday 13th June 02:35
I'm sorry for your loss.
Depending on your financial situation, a solicitor might be helpful in this case. The papers and method of investigation will be clear to them.
They can then decide the best option for you given your wishes.
Further, you pass the problem onto someone else. You, not doubt, have other concerns.
Silly to say it, but all the best. I feel for you.
Derek
Depending on your financial situation, a solicitor might be helpful in this case. The papers and method of investigation will be clear to them.
They can then decide the best option for you given your wishes.
Further, you pass the problem onto someone else. You, not doubt, have other concerns.
Silly to say it, but all the best. I feel for you.
Derek
Thankyou,
The appointed FLO came to my home yesterday and I've looked at the police file more comprehensively,
I'm at a loss as what to do,
The police on the night of the collision quickly came to the conclusion my son travelled down a path and straight across the road so giving driver no time to react, this is clearly incorrect as we as a family quickly informed the police on the night of the collision that my son was travelling from his girlfriends house towards his mothers home and also a witness confirmed the direction of my sons travel, non of these details seem to have got to the investigating team until weeks later, I requested a meeting with the investigating officer who duly told me these details had been taken into consideration.
Having read the police file I conclude the police on the night felt sorry for the driver and didn't ask any real questions of the car drivers speed, even after I informed the police my son was travelling towards the car on the opposite side of the road,
These details seem to have been all but forgotten about,
The police inform me they can not assertain the the drivers speed,, this leads me to feel the driver was not investigated properly,,
After 5 months of torment I'm now left feeling the details of this collision don't really matter as the speed of the car driver can not be confirmed, so the police feel they can do nothing,, what they should be doing I'd actually asking searching questions of the driver and they should have interigated the driver far more than ask him one question regarding his speed which he estimated as he wasn't sure!
The conversation them moves onto his actions after the collision,, not once is he quizzed in any depth regarding his speed.
I've done similar drake tests with a similar car as the drivers, consistently with Abs I was stopping in half the distance,,,
But the police say his stopping distance is normal for his apparent road speed.
It's clear to me my son died as s result of excess speed, I think the police believe this to but don't feel like they Can prove it,,
What plays on my mind is the basic details were incorrectly ascertained so the driver never got questioned as a suspect, more a victim,,
I've been in contact with a family solicitor and we'll go from there.
It's clear to me the driver is the only one who can answer the question of speed, (40 mph) limit,, he says he's was doing 40-45 mph? My sons injuries were massive and fatal,,
I feel there's enough circumstantial evidence to suggest the details of this accident are not clear,,
It's also clear an investigation was held and on the night which guessed my sons direction and clearly blamed him for this event, the book was closed and no actions from the police have taken place since, no written evidence or notes of contact with the driver.
The drivers actions have been overlooked in favour of my sons so called actions,, which at best are also a guess from the Police point of view.
I've pleaded with the police to re question the driver, but nothing!
He sat in his car and didn't move for some minutes after the crash, animated and shouting he's gonna be ok isn't he, he was concerned for his own life. If he was travelling at 50 mph my son was hit by a speeding car,,,,,, end of question!
These cases are very emotional but I've tried to remove that and look at this as any other accident, I just can't understand why the police did not question the driver in any detail over his speed.
Speed kills ,,, end!
Thanks for the input gentlmen, I'll talk with the solicitor and see what are our options.
Many regards.
The appointed FLO came to my home yesterday and I've looked at the police file more comprehensively,
I'm at a loss as what to do,
The police on the night of the collision quickly came to the conclusion my son travelled down a path and straight across the road so giving driver no time to react, this is clearly incorrect as we as a family quickly informed the police on the night of the collision that my son was travelling from his girlfriends house towards his mothers home and also a witness confirmed the direction of my sons travel, non of these details seem to have got to the investigating team until weeks later, I requested a meeting with the investigating officer who duly told me these details had been taken into consideration.
Having read the police file I conclude the police on the night felt sorry for the driver and didn't ask any real questions of the car drivers speed, even after I informed the police my son was travelling towards the car on the opposite side of the road,
These details seem to have been all but forgotten about,
The police inform me they can not assertain the the drivers speed,, this leads me to feel the driver was not investigated properly,,
After 5 months of torment I'm now left feeling the details of this collision don't really matter as the speed of the car driver can not be confirmed, so the police feel they can do nothing,, what they should be doing I'd actually asking searching questions of the driver and they should have interigated the driver far more than ask him one question regarding his speed which he estimated as he wasn't sure!
The conversation them moves onto his actions after the collision,, not once is he quizzed in any depth regarding his speed.
I've done similar drake tests with a similar car as the drivers, consistently with Abs I was stopping in half the distance,,,
But the police say his stopping distance is normal for his apparent road speed.
It's clear to me my son died as s result of excess speed, I think the police believe this to but don't feel like they Can prove it,,
What plays on my mind is the basic details were incorrectly ascertained so the driver never got questioned as a suspect, more a victim,,
I've been in contact with a family solicitor and we'll go from there.
It's clear to me the driver is the only one who can answer the question of speed, (40 mph) limit,, he says he's was doing 40-45 mph? My sons injuries were massive and fatal,,
I feel there's enough circumstantial evidence to suggest the details of this accident are not clear,,
It's also clear an investigation was held and on the night which guessed my sons direction and clearly blamed him for this event, the book was closed and no actions from the police have taken place since, no written evidence or notes of contact with the driver.
The drivers actions have been overlooked in favour of my sons so called actions,, which at best are also a guess from the Police point of view.
I've pleaded with the police to re question the driver, but nothing!
He sat in his car and didn't move for some minutes after the crash, animated and shouting he's gonna be ok isn't he, he was concerned for his own life. If he was travelling at 50 mph my son was hit by a speeding car,,,,,, end of question!
These cases are very emotional but I've tried to remove that and look at this as any other accident, I just can't understand why the police did not question the driver in any detail over his speed.
Speed kills ,,, end!
Thanks for the input gentlmen, I'll talk with the solicitor and see what are our options.
Many regards.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/victims_witnesses/victims_ri...
Very sorry for your loss, the above link may assist.
Very sorry for your loss, the above link may assist.
OP, A few points to bear in mind:
Firstly, road traffic collisions are complex events. it's almost unheard of for there to be one single cause of a collision - a number of factors usually come together at the same time and result in a collision.
Speed can be extremely difficult to calculate following a collision. In the pre-ABS days, drivers would hit the brakes hard and lock their wheels, leaving visible skid marks on the road. Police accident investigators would then measure the coefficient of friction of the road surface, factor in the mass of the vehicle and the subsequent damage and position of vehicles, and come up with a rough estimate of a vehicles speed. The estimated speed, however, was only ever that - an estimate. It would give an indication that a driver may have been driving grossly over the speed limit, but I've investigated fatal accidents which have used a speed estimated by the AI as "between 33 and 48mph".
Calculations aren't just down to the AI either - for fatal accidents, their calculations are usually independently verified by an academic before being included in the report.
Now ABS is commonly fitted to most vehicles, these calculations are even more difficult because cars don't leave the typical skid marks we're familiar with and braking marks from an ABS equipped car are more difficult to identify and measure.
And, of course, all those calculations assume that there is some amount of pre-impact braking which, with many pedestrian or cyclist accidents, often isn't the case - braking quite often follows the impact and if the driver doesn't hit the brakes with enough force to activate the ABS (a very common issue which has led to brake-assist systems being fitted by many manufacturers), then there will be no braking marks at the scene at all, which can make speed assessment pretty much impossible.
I need to be clear about one aspect of your last post (and I don't mean to be blunt, but I'm assuming you're looking for some facts at the moment and this one is highly relevant). A 40mph impact with a pedestrian or cyclist would - in the vast majority of cases - lead to extremely serious (and usually fatal) injuries. 40mph doesn't feel very fast when we're in the cosseted confines of a motor vehicle, but a 40mph impact with a person would usually lead to a fatality, especially if there is no pre-impact braking.
I cannot comment on this particular police investigation and it wouldn't be fair for me to go into too much detail about the investigation, but I can say that during my time as a traffic officer I investigated a number of serious and fatal accidents and the last thing I would ever do is jump to any conclusions about the cause - as I mentioned previously, collisions are complex events and an investigation can be a long and complicated process.
In most cases, independent eye witnesses are the most useful source of evidence. People directly involved in the accident (drivers, passengers etc. will always have a slightly (and sometimes very) biased view of events and no matter how honest a driver or rider is in recalling the events leading up to an accident, they always try to minimize their own culpability. This isn't usually deliberate lies or deception - it's just a normal human response to an extremely traumatic incident. None of us like to admit that we're at fault - especially if someone has died as a result.
If you're unhappy with the current course of the police investigation, your first point of contact should be with the officers themselves and if you're unhappy with their response, a complaint to a more senior officer. There are also a number of independent accident investigators who can be employed to either carry out their own investigation or review the police report. However, their services are not cheap and you may have difficulty obtaining the full police report until a decision has been made on whether a prosecution will result or whether the matter will be dealt with by way of a Coroner's inquest.
I'll end with a more personal note about your loss and how you may be feeling at the moment. I lost my Sister in a road accident - an accident which I actually attended. In my case one driver was prosecuted for causing my Sister's death, and another (equally culpable) driver was never traced and is probably still out there somewhere in full knowledge that he caused her death.
The prosecution of an individual made no difference to how my family and I felt. It brought no closure, it brought no solace and it brought no relief.
The closure, solace and relief actually came from our friends and family, the support we received from those closest to us and the slow and very gradual realisation that, in fact, life does actually go on. Having someone to blame for the accident didn't help at all and I now have no ill-feelings about the people who caused the accident. They were just a couple of young lads being daft and driving like idiots - nothing many of us haven't also done at one time or another.
I have subsequently worked with many people who have been bereaved in road accidents. Most eventually move on with their lives to a degree (you won't get over it - but you can learn to live with it), but a minority of people let it chew them up and end up with very serious emotional and mental health issues as a result. One of the most common reasons for the second reaction is an inability to accept that there isn't actually one "thing" or individual who is responsible for the accident and an insistence that they continue to look for someone to blame. They feel that if they can identify the individual person or thing which caused the accident, it will, in some way, soften the impact of their loss.
It never does.
I'm not for one minute saying that you should just accept the police report without questioning the evidence and the outcome, and I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't complain if you feel that something is wrong.
All I'm saying is that you should try to avoid it becoming the single, sole focus of your attention - others around you need your support and love and want to offer their support and love to you - don't let the facts of the accident take your attention to the exclusion of everything and everyone else around you.
If you'd like to talk further or there are issues you'd like explaining, please feel free to contact me via my webpage (via clicking my username).
Firstly, road traffic collisions are complex events. it's almost unheard of for there to be one single cause of a collision - a number of factors usually come together at the same time and result in a collision.
Speed can be extremely difficult to calculate following a collision. In the pre-ABS days, drivers would hit the brakes hard and lock their wheels, leaving visible skid marks on the road. Police accident investigators would then measure the coefficient of friction of the road surface, factor in the mass of the vehicle and the subsequent damage and position of vehicles, and come up with a rough estimate of a vehicles speed. The estimated speed, however, was only ever that - an estimate. It would give an indication that a driver may have been driving grossly over the speed limit, but I've investigated fatal accidents which have used a speed estimated by the AI as "between 33 and 48mph".
Calculations aren't just down to the AI either - for fatal accidents, their calculations are usually independently verified by an academic before being included in the report.
Now ABS is commonly fitted to most vehicles, these calculations are even more difficult because cars don't leave the typical skid marks we're familiar with and braking marks from an ABS equipped car are more difficult to identify and measure.
And, of course, all those calculations assume that there is some amount of pre-impact braking which, with many pedestrian or cyclist accidents, often isn't the case - braking quite often follows the impact and if the driver doesn't hit the brakes with enough force to activate the ABS (a very common issue which has led to brake-assist systems being fitted by many manufacturers), then there will be no braking marks at the scene at all, which can make speed assessment pretty much impossible.
I need to be clear about one aspect of your last post (and I don't mean to be blunt, but I'm assuming you're looking for some facts at the moment and this one is highly relevant). A 40mph impact with a pedestrian or cyclist would - in the vast majority of cases - lead to extremely serious (and usually fatal) injuries. 40mph doesn't feel very fast when we're in the cosseted confines of a motor vehicle, but a 40mph impact with a person would usually lead to a fatality, especially if there is no pre-impact braking.
I cannot comment on this particular police investigation and it wouldn't be fair for me to go into too much detail about the investigation, but I can say that during my time as a traffic officer I investigated a number of serious and fatal accidents and the last thing I would ever do is jump to any conclusions about the cause - as I mentioned previously, collisions are complex events and an investigation can be a long and complicated process.
In most cases, independent eye witnesses are the most useful source of evidence. People directly involved in the accident (drivers, passengers etc. will always have a slightly (and sometimes very) biased view of events and no matter how honest a driver or rider is in recalling the events leading up to an accident, they always try to minimize their own culpability. This isn't usually deliberate lies or deception - it's just a normal human response to an extremely traumatic incident. None of us like to admit that we're at fault - especially if someone has died as a result.
If you're unhappy with the current course of the police investigation, your first point of contact should be with the officers themselves and if you're unhappy with their response, a complaint to a more senior officer. There are also a number of independent accident investigators who can be employed to either carry out their own investigation or review the police report. However, their services are not cheap and you may have difficulty obtaining the full police report until a decision has been made on whether a prosecution will result or whether the matter will be dealt with by way of a Coroner's inquest.
I'll end with a more personal note about your loss and how you may be feeling at the moment. I lost my Sister in a road accident - an accident which I actually attended. In my case one driver was prosecuted for causing my Sister's death, and another (equally culpable) driver was never traced and is probably still out there somewhere in full knowledge that he caused her death.
The prosecution of an individual made no difference to how my family and I felt. It brought no closure, it brought no solace and it brought no relief.
The closure, solace and relief actually came from our friends and family, the support we received from those closest to us and the slow and very gradual realisation that, in fact, life does actually go on. Having someone to blame for the accident didn't help at all and I now have no ill-feelings about the people who caused the accident. They were just a couple of young lads being daft and driving like idiots - nothing many of us haven't also done at one time or another.
I have subsequently worked with many people who have been bereaved in road accidents. Most eventually move on with their lives to a degree (you won't get over it - but you can learn to live with it), but a minority of people let it chew them up and end up with very serious emotional and mental health issues as a result. One of the most common reasons for the second reaction is an inability to accept that there isn't actually one "thing" or individual who is responsible for the accident and an insistence that they continue to look for someone to blame. They feel that if they can identify the individual person or thing which caused the accident, it will, in some way, soften the impact of their loss.
It never does.
I'm not for one minute saying that you should just accept the police report without questioning the evidence and the outcome, and I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't complain if you feel that something is wrong.
All I'm saying is that you should try to avoid it becoming the single, sole focus of your attention - others around you need your support and love and want to offer their support and love to you - don't let the facts of the accident take your attention to the exclusion of everything and everyone else around you.
If you'd like to talk further or there are issues you'd like explaining, please feel free to contact me via my webpage (via clicking my username).
So sorry for your loss OP. The above (brilliant) reply from Reglocal is great advice and there is not much I can really add to it.
My son was driving home from college with a couple of friends and somehow on a straight Road lost control and hit a tree. My son died along with the front seat passenger. (the boy in the back seat was uninjured). Unfortunately after the long investigation concluded they couldn't come up with any answers.
I have had to accept that I will never know what happened,and tbh it doesn't actually make any difference to me, he's dead and I'll never see him again. That's what I've got to deal with. The rest (to me) is irrelevant.
I hope you can find away away forward, one way or another.
My son was driving home from college with a couple of friends and somehow on a straight Road lost control and hit a tree. My son died along with the front seat passenger. (the boy in the back seat was uninjured). Unfortunately after the long investigation concluded they couldn't come up with any answers.
I have had to accept that I will never know what happened,and tbh it doesn't actually make any difference to me, he's dead and I'll never see him again. That's what I've got to deal with. The rest (to me) is irrelevant.
I hope you can find away away forward, one way or another.
I am deeply, deeply sorry for your loss. My mother always used to say that she wished no parent would suffer the pain of losing a child and that it was the worst thing she could ever imagine.
Given the inconsistencies between the events as you know them to have happended and what seemed to be taken as they were in the inquest, I would do the same as you and try to get the record straightened. It may have been driving without due care or attention, or being/texting on another mobile phone than the one the police were aware of etc., none of which may be easy, or even possible, to prove. However, if someone has taken the life of your son with their inattention, they shouldn't get a clear conscience "because it was the cyclist's fault and they couldn't have done anything about it."
Having said that, many pedestrians hit at a significantly lower speed than 40mph suffer extensive and not infrequently fatal injuries. It may be better not concentrating on the speed but that it was unreasonable to hit a cyclist on the other side of the road going in the opposite direction whatever the speed or circumstances.
Once again, my heartfelt sympaties at your loss.
Given the inconsistencies between the events as you know them to have happended and what seemed to be taken as they were in the inquest, I would do the same as you and try to get the record straightened. It may have been driving without due care or attention, or being/texting on another mobile phone than the one the police were aware of etc., none of which may be easy, or even possible, to prove. However, if someone has taken the life of your son with their inattention, they shouldn't get a clear conscience "because it was the cyclist's fault and they couldn't have done anything about it."
Having said that, many pedestrians hit at a significantly lower speed than 40mph suffer extensive and not infrequently fatal injuries. It may be better not concentrating on the speed but that it was unreasonable to hit a cyclist on the other side of the road going in the opposite direction whatever the speed or circumstances.
Once again, my heartfelt sympaties at your loss.
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