Driving for over 12mths on a usa licence - likely penalty?

[MrsMiggins]

I work with someone who has been in the UK for around 14 months and has been driving their own vehicle for just over 12 months using their USA licence.

I've warned them that they no longer have a valid driving licence and if they get caught they could be charged with both licence and insurance offences.

Am I right? IIRC, an insurance cert usually says something along the lines of "you're insured as along as you have a licence" and my colleague technically doesn't have a licence...

Bit vague I know, but anyone got any experience to share?

[Happy Jim]

If they are a visitor it's 12 months from entry to UK, if resident then it's 12 months from grant of residency - after that....apply for provisional, pass theory, take/pass practical test.

Chances are they are driving without a licence and therefore uninsured!

[GCH]

When I asked (not for me), the DVLA told me that each time they leave and re-enter the country the 12 month clock starts again.

[Tony1963]

GCH said:

When I asked (not for me), the DVLA told me that each time they leave and re-enter the country the 12 month clock starts again.

Was that as a visitor or resident?

[MrsMiggins]

I would have thought that living and working here makes you resident, regardless of whether or not you holiday abroad occasionally.

[SS2.]

MrsMiggins said:

I've warned them that they no longer have a valid driving licence and if they get caught they could be charged with both licence and insurance offences.

If it transpired that he was driving whilst uninsured, yes.

No licence and / or insurance means they're also at risk of having their vehicle seized at the roadside.

[carinatauk]

MrsMiggins said:

I would have thought that living and working here makes you resident, regardless of whether or not you holiday abroad occasionally.

Afraid not, depends on numerous factors. Complex set of rules for both taxation and residency.

And it's more complex if you own a property in your country of origin what your spouse does / lives, and what working visa you have etc.

ETA:

Extract from Tax people:

Work out your residence status

Whether you’re UK resident usually depends on how many days you spend in the UK in the tax year (6 April to 5 April the following year).

You’re automatically resident if either:

you spent 183 or more days in the UK in the tax year
your only home was in the UK - you must have owned, rented or lived in it for at least 91 days in total and you spent at least 30 days there in the tax year

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you haven’t been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working

This just touches the surface!

Edited by carinatauk on Friday 12th August 09:12

[Pints]

carinatauk said:

MrsMiggins said:

I would have thought that living and working here makes you resident, regardless of whether or not you holiday abroad occasionally.

Afraid not, depends on numerous factors. Complex set of rules for both taxation and residency.

It's a damn shame. A colleague would use this little loophole to retain her foreign licence and flout all sorts of driving laws, despite living and working in the UK. She would go back "home" once a year for two weeks to visit her parents.

[jesta1865]

Happy Jim said:

If they are a visitor it's 12 months from entry to UK, if resident then it's 12 months from grant of residency - after that....apply for provisional, pass theory, take/pass practical test.

Chances are they are driving without a licence and therefore uninsured!

wouldn't they just convert to an international driving licence and then to a uk one by default?

i know it's Australia, but my son has just been given an Oz one as they recognise our test.

[MrsMiggins]

Colleague is from the USA - no agreement with the UK to allow a swap.

[johnao]

carinatauk said:

MrsMiggins said:

I would have thought that living and working here makes you resident, regardless of whether or not you holiday abroad occasionally.

Afraid not, depends on numerous factors. Complex set of rules for both taxation and residency.

And it's more complex if you own a property in your country of origin what your spouse does / lives, and what working visa you have etc.

ETA:

Extract from Tax people:

Work out your residence status

Whether you’re UK resident usually depends on how many days you spend in the UK in the tax year (6 April to 5 April the following year).

You’re automatically resident if either:

you spent 183 or more days in the UK in the tax year
your only home was in the UK - you must have owned, rented or lived in it for at least 91 days in total and you spent at least 30 days there in the tax year

You’re automatically non-resident if either:

you spent fewer than 16 days in the UK (or 46 days if you haven’t been classed as UK resident for the 3 previous tax years)
you work abroad full-time (averaging at least 35 hours a week) and spent fewer than 91 days in the UK, of which no more than 30 were spent working

This just touches the surface!

Edited by carinatauk on Friday 12th August 09:12

I would have thought that it is extremely unlikely that the residency and domicile provisions contained within the Taxes Acts, which are specific to UK tax legislation and regulation, would have much relevance to the legislation found in The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations.

My advice to the OP's friend is to go and talk to a solicitor who knows about these things and ask his advice about how to go about getting a UK driving licence and whether or not he should immediately stop driving.

[MrsMiggins]

Pints said:

carinatauk said:

MrsMiggins said:

I would have thought that living and working here makes you resident, regardless of whether or not you holiday abroad occasionally.

Afraid not, depends on numerous factors. Complex set of rules for both taxation and residency.

It's a damn shame. A colleague would use this little loophole to retain her foreign licence and flout all sorts of driving laws, despite living and working in the UK. She would go back "home" once a year for two weeks to visit her parents.

So in your experience a day trip to France would reset the 12month clock for using a "foreign" licence to drive here? That's good news for the colleague if true as although living and working here they do travel occasionally and have been out of the UK 3 or 4 times in the last 12 months. It's bonkers if that's true though!

Call to DVLA would seem to be in order...

ETA: according to DVLA they don't decide when the 12 month clock starts/stops as that's based on whether or not the person is a resident or a visitor and that's decided by the Home Office. (Just as HappyJim said above) A quick mooch around the Home Office section of gov.uk doesn't uncover a simple answer to that question.

Edited by MrsMiggins on Friday 12th August 10:05

Edited by MrsMiggins on Friday 12th August 10:08

[onedsla]

MrsMiggins said:

So in your experience a day trip to France would reset the 12month clock for using a "foreign" licence to drive here? That's good news for the colleague if true as although living and working here they do travel occasionally and have been out of the UK 3 or 4 times in the last 12 months. It's bonkers if that's true though!

Call to DVLA would seem to be in order...

I imported my wife from the US, and she initially drove on her US licence whilst working towards her UK test.

This also seemed wrong to me so I did some research which was inconclusive (I recall contributing to an old thread on here from 5-7 years ago), then a call with the DVLA who confirmed that 12 months would start from most recent entry.

If it's any consolation, adding an experienced US driver to the M3 I had at the time would have increased insurance from around £600 to £3000. We ended up 'down car-ing' until she had a few years of full UK licence time - after a couple of years it made negligible difference to the premium.

ETA - found it. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Note the post from DVD, a very respected retired BiB who used to frequent the forum:

Dwight VanDriver said:

Oh dreary me I tink I am going to be at variance.....

Party based from my earlier days chasing Eire Tinkers over here on their domestic Eire Licence. For 364 days they could drive over here continuously but on the 365th day trip on the ferry back to Dublin and return and the 364 days started again.

Also in view Order 2, of Motor Vehicles (International Circulation ) Order 1975 which states:

Lawful for a person RESIDENT OUTSIDE UK who is TEMPORARILY in Great Britain and who holds a domestic driving licence issued in a country outside UK dduring a period of 12 months from THE DATE OF HIS LAST ENTRY Into the UL to drive. (Providing groups are covered).

'Resident' and 'Temporarily' are not defined under the Order or RTA 1988 section dealing with Licences.

There is therefore a leagl arguement either way as to whether or not the GF whilst can be classed as a citizen can also be a resident outside UK and here temporarily. This it would seem can be negated the longer she is over here?

dvd

Edited by onedsla on Friday 12th August 10:20

Edited by onedsla on Friday 12th August 10:21

[Happy Jim]

[/quote]

wouldn't they just convert to an international driving licence and then to a uk one by default?

i know it's Australia, but my son has just been given an Oz one as they recognise our test.

[/quote]

No, that loophole is perfectly covered to stop peeps doing exactly that - if test is passed in the EU then it's a straight swap, otherwise you've got 12 months to pass a UK driving test

Jim

[Aretnap]

Happy Jim said:

johnao said:

wouldn't they just convert to an international driving licence and then to a uk one by default?

i know it's Australia, but my son has just been given an Oz one as they recognise our test.

No, that loophole is perfectly covered to stop peeps doing exactly that - if test is passed in the EU then it's a straight swap, otherwise you've got 12 months to pass a UK driving test

Not quite. There are certain non-EU countries with exchange agreements with Great Britain, which means that their licences can be exchanged for a GB one without having to pass a GB test. They include Canada, New Zealand, Australia and Japan - but not the USA.

SO an Australian can get a British licence without having to pass a test, but an American can't.

[Slidingpillar]

There are a few counties where their driving licence is converted other than the EU. However, as has happened loads of times before - the official website is plain wrong... (They try to simplify and throw the baby out with the bathwater).

This site has the look of something that is correct:
http://www.expatica.com/uk/moving-to/Exchanging-yo...

Added - the overall principal is that the test is equal to or superior to our one. Very easy 'test' in some counties, look up what the test is in India, hence an Indian licence is not accepted.

Edited by Slidingpillar on Friday 12th August 10:59

[MrsMiggins]

onedsla said:

I imported my wife from the US, and she initially drove on her US licence whilst working towards her UK test.

This also seemed wrong to me so I did some research which was inconclusive (I recall contributing to an old thread on here from 5-7 years ago), then a call with the DVLA who confirmed that 12 months would start from most recent entry.

ETA - found it. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Note the post from DVD, a very respected retired BiB who used to frequent the forum:

Dwight VanDriver said:

Also in view Order 2, of Motor Vehicles (International Circulation ) Order 1975 which states:

Lawful for a person RESIDENT OUTSIDE UK who is TEMPORARILY in Great Britain and who holds a domestic driving licence issued in a country outside UK dduring a period of 12 months from THE DATE OF HIS LAST ENTRY Into the UL to drive. (Providing groups are covered).

'Resident' and 'Temporarily' are not defined under the Order or RTA 1988

Thanks onedsla. Turns out my colleague is on a tier 2 visa and pays tax in the USA so looks like they're a visitor and can use their USA licence as long as they leave the UK at least once every 12 months to refresh their date of entry.

Live and learn!

[Pints]

MrsMiggins said:

So in your experience a day trip to France would reset the 12month clock for using a "foreign" licence to drive here? That's good news for the colleague if true as although living and working here they do travel occasionally and have been out of the UK 3 or 4 times in the last 12 months. It's bonkers if that's true though!

Call to DVLA would seem to be in order...

ETA: according to DVLA they don't decide when the 12 month clock starts/stops as that's based on whether or not the person is a resident or a visitor and that's decided by the Home Office. (Just as HappyJim said above) A quick mooch around the Home Office section of gov.uk doesn't uncover a simple answer to that question.

Edited by MrsMiggins on Friday 12th August 10:05

Edited by MrsMiggins on Friday 12th August 10:08

Your edit is about right. Doesn't seem to be very clear. How do they prove you're resident or not?

[legendracer]

When resident term isn't defined does it mean that a person on tier 2 dependent visa can get the international license extended if a travel outside UK is done before 12 months period?

How does insurance company view this?

[Sebring440]

MrsMiggins said:

I've warned them that they no longer have a valid driving licence and if they get caught they could be charged with both licence and insurance offences.

MrsMiggins said:

Call to DVLA would seem to be in order...

This is a serious question:

What has this got to do with you?

Why are you so interested, and getting concerned by this?