'Too drunk to give consent'

[Condi]

Quick question for all you SPL people - the whole Chad Evans rape case seems to hinge around the girl being too drunk to give consent to sex. She was apparently 3 times the legal drink drive limit. How come in every other crime I can think of, being drunk is not an excuse? If I get in the car and drive home I cant be considered too drunk to have made a decision. If I punch someone, even if I dont remember it, I can be prosecuted for that decision. So what happens if I have sex while driving home over the limit? Can I be prosecuted for drink driving yet be considered unable to have consented to the sex because I was too drunk?

Seems a bit of an odd law, and an anomaly to other UK laws.

[Rubin215]

You've missed the point mate; the girl has committed no crime, despite being drunk.

[Condi]

No I know she's committed no crime - but the point is surely she made a decision (apparently) about whether or not to have sex with him. She obviously did have sex with him, but next morning claimed she was too drunk to have made the call.

If I do something - anything - I dont get the luxury of saying next morning 'I cant be held responsible for that because drunk'. So why should sex be any different?

[Rubin215]

You're still missing the point.

You go out, get drunk and tt someone; the ttted guy didn't ask to be assaulted by a drunk.
Likewise, someone going out and getting drunk doesn't deserve to be ttted by someone just because he's drunk.

You go out, get drunk get in your car and run someone over; the poor fella didn't ask to get run over by a drunk.
Likewise, someone going out and getting drunk doesn't deserve to get run over just because he's drunk.

The girl went out and got drunk; she doesn't deserve to get fked just because she's drunk...

[stuartmmcfc]

Rubin's explained it correctly in an easy to understand sort of way

[BugLebowski]

I think you're missing the point big time with this one. The girl is the victim in this situation not the defendant.

If on the other hand both the girl and Evans were equally drunk then presumably they would both be committing a crime. Good luck with that one though.

[SiH]

Condi said:

Quick question for all you SPL people - the whole Chad Evans rape case seems to hinge around the girl being too drunk to give consent to sex. She was apparently 3 times the legal drink drive limit. How come in every other crime I can think of, being drunk is not an excuse? If I get in the car and drive home I cant be considered too drunk to have made a decision. If I punch someone, even if I dont remember it, I can be prosecuted for that decision. So what happens if I have sex while driving home over the limit? Can I be prosecuted for drink driving yet be considered unable to have consented to the sex because I was too drunk?

Seems a bit of an odd law, and an anomaly to other UK laws.

As far as I'm concerned the issue was around whether consent was given and to whom it was given. I believe (though I'm happy to be corrected) that it is agreed she engaged in consensual sex with the first chap (Ched Evans' team mate) but during this Ched Evans talked the hotel staff into giving him a room key that he used to get into the hotel room whereupon he, allegedly, had sex with the girl without her knowledge or explicit consent. After this he left and didn't speak to her during the whole episode.
The woman in question committed no crime at all, no matter how drunk she was. I am of the opinion that his behaviour and actions are not those of a decent human being and I also cannot support the assertion that consent was given; it just doesn't match the sequence of events that has been agreed by all parties.

[spookly]

Don't know if OP is just being silly, as it is so obvious where they are going with prosecuting these cases.

The problem as I see it is that it introduces a very grey area. How drunk is too drunk? How can someone gauge drunkenness of someone else? What if you're both drunk?

Also, in the Ched Evans case, I don't follow why they prosecuted. They didn't have evidence that she hadn't consented, nor a claim that she hadn't consented, as she said she couldn't remember. Are they going to prosecute every case where one or other (yeah, right... it'll always be a woman) person cannot remember consenting or positively engaging?

I absolutely do not agree with non-consensual sexual contact. But I can't see how these things can turn out to be anything more than a he said/she said kind of thing. How can you prove consent or lack thereof? How can you prove how drunk someone appeared to be?

Personally, I am currently a little drunk and might consent

[Condi]

BugLebowski said:

I think you're missing the point big time with this one. The girl is the victim in this situation not the defendant.

If on the other hand both the girl and Evans were equally drunk then presumably they would both be committing a crime. Good luck with that one though.

Shes not a victim, unless he's committed a crime.

And as the whole point if hes committed a crime come back to being 'too drunk to give consent' it means that she has a 'get out of jail free card' regarding her actions from the night before. If she's embarrassed about it, she can surely just claim to have been too drunk - and therefore a crime has been committed. If shes happy with it then it was consensual sex and no crime happens.

So what happens if he records her consenting, and then she turns around the following morning and declares she was too drunk?

[Condi]

Rubin215 said:

You're still missing the point.

You go out, get drunk get in your car and run someone over; the poor fella didn't ask to get run over by a drunk.
Likewise, someone going out and getting drunk doesn't deserve to get run over just because he's drunk.

The girl went out and got drunk; she doesn't deserve to get fked just because she's drunk...

Im not saying she deserved to get fked because she was drunk... Im saying the fact she was drunk and could drunkenly agree to do so doesnt give her the right to turn round tomorrow and say she was too drunk to agree and therefore the episode was rape when at the time she consented.

[Brads67]

Rubin215 said:

You're still missing the point.

You go out, get drunk and tt someone; the ttted guy didn't ask to be assaulted by a drunk.
Likewise, someone going out and getting drunk doesn't deserve to be ttted by someone just because he's drunk.

You go out, get drunk get in your car and run someone over; the poor fella didn't ask to get run over by a drunk.
Likewise, someone going out and getting drunk doesn't deserve to get run over just because he's drunk.

The girl went out and got drunk; she doesn't deserve to get fked just because she's drunk...

I think what he means is she had sex whilst drunk and decided the next day that she was too drunk to consent.

Every chance she did ask, and got, then regretted,

[Bill]

Condi said:

Shes not a victim, unless he's committed a crime.

And as the whole point if hes committed a crime come back to being 'too drunk to give consent' it means that she has a 'get out of jail free card' regarding her actions from the night before. If she's embarrassed about it, she can surely just claim to have been too drunk - and therefore a crime has been committed. If shes happy with it then it was consensual sex and no crime happens.

So what happens if he records her consenting, and then she turns around the following morning and declares she was too drunk?

Tbh I'd rather she had the "I was too drunk" card rather than the alternative.

[stargazer30]

Leaving the Evans case aside. Do I understand the law correctly here?

Boy goes out on the town and gets a bit drunk, meets girl who's also a bit drunk. They hit it off and have sex. Next day she crys rape. There's medical proof they had sex and proof she had alcohol in her system. Does the guy in this scenario end up a rapist and have his life destroyed? Prison, sex offenders register etc...?

After all even if she was ripping his clothes off the night before, since she cannot legally consent he's guilty right?

[JustinP1]

Condi said:

So what happens if I have sex while driving home over the limit?

Pictures with a tin of custard or this thread is dead.

[Brads67]

Correct

[northwest monkey]

spookly said:

Personally, I am currently a little drunk and might consent

You flirt;)

[vonhosen]

stargazer30 said:

Leaving the Evans case aside. Do I understand the law correctly here?

Boy goes out on the town and gets a bit drunk, meets girl who's also a bit drunk. They hit it off and have sex. Next day she crys rape. There's medical proof they had sex and proof she had alcohol in her system. Does the guy in this scenario end up a rapist and have his life destroyed? Prison, sex offenders register etc...?

After all even if she was ripping his clothes off the night before, since she cannot legally consent he's guilty right?

No, ' a bit' squiffy doesn't apply.
It's where so drunk that they are unable to look after themselves & whilst they are in that obvious vulnerable state (in no fit state to have consensual sex) a predator takes advantage of that.

[ging84]

Think of it like this

If someone came across someone stumbling in the street drunk, and helped them self to thier wallet and phone, and they put up no resistance, then reported them stolen the next day, would anyone be trying to argue that the phone and wallet were gifted to the other person and that no theft had taken place?

The drunk person, assuming they willingly consumed the alcohol, only has them self to blame for thier situation, but that still doesn't make it ok that the other person committed theft.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

Condi said:

Im not saying she deserved to get fked because she was drunk... Im saying the fact she was drunk and could drunkenly agree to do so doesnt give her the right to turn round tomorrow and say she was too drunk to agree and therefore the episode was rape when at the time she consented.

If she gives consent, even though she's drunk, that's consent. Drunken consent is fine. If it weren't, thousands of people's normal love lives would be based on rape, and there are many happily married couples who's regular routine is Saturday night drunken sex, with him knocking back the whisky whilst watching MOTD and her doing 2 bottles of wine thru the evening.

We're talking about women so paralytic that they can't walk or talk. You see them every Friday/Saturday night in any town, falling out of pubs and clubs, literally lying in the gutter.

These women can't give consent...they can't even give their name!

[fidzer]

https://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8

I always like the tea analogy. Language used in this video is NSFW by the way.