Wrong type of vehicle in a loading only bay

[MrJuice]

Hello

I got a PCN for 'parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle'

I was in my private car that is owned by me. It is not a commercial vehicle. I was on business if that makes any difference and my car is insured for business.

I had paid a supplier for goods and was going to their premises to collect these goods. Payment was definitely made in advance and I'm sure they'd be happy to verify this.

The restriction on the sign just says 'loading only Monday to Friday 8.30am to 6pm'

Will I win if I challenge this? I've parked in the same place at least twenty times before so thought I was parking legitimately. Always parked there for collection of goods paid for in advance. And never for more than ten mins.

Thank you for any guidance

[Johnnytheboy]

Fascinating. You would expect the bay would have to be marked "commercial vehicles only" or some such.

[Hugo a Gogo]

just out of interest, what physical dimensions did your goods have?

[TWR]

If you can prove, I would fight it.

[brrapp]

I got a ticket for this a few years ago, parked my Volvo estate(seats down, tailgate open etc) outside a shop to pick up an exercise bike. I came out carrying the bike and remonstrated with the warden but he refused to cancel the ticket as I was in a car, not a van. Appealed the ticket and it was cancelled.

[TooMany2cvs]

MrJuice said:

I got a PCN for 'parked in a parking place or area not designated for that class of vehicle'

The restriction on the sign just says 'loading only Monday to Friday 8.30am to 6pm'

Photo of the sign.

Are you absolutely 100% sure it doesn't say "Goode vehicle loading only"?

[speedking31]

If you look here at page 19 there are specific signs for goods vehicle exemptions. In their absence all vehicles are treated equally.

[KungFuPanda]

In Manchester we gave "Loading Only" and "Goods Vehicles Loading Only" signs.

As others have said, are you sure the sign didn't read "Goods Vehicles Loading Only"

[MrJuice]

Hugo a Gogo said:

just out of interest, what physical dimensions did your goods have?

Dimensions are irrelevant. Goods are goods. In my case they are physical goods that on this occasion fitted into three carrier bags.

Thanks to everyone else

The sign definitely said loading only. Which is probably why I haven't had a ticket in the past.

Just across the street and further along the same street there are some Goods Vehicle only loading bays. This is not the case where I parked.

I have photographed the relevant sign with my car in the foreground. I suspect the CEO will photograph the signs across the street showing goods vehicles only for the 'evidence' if he knowingly ticketed my car wrongly. If he's made a mistake, it'll probably get cancelled. If when I view the evidence inline there is a photograph of the goods vehicle only sign, I'll definitely fight it.

In the interests of full disclosure, I did take at least ten mins collecting the goods.

[Johnnytheboy]

MrJuice said:

In the interests of full disclosure, I did take at least ten mins collecting the goods.

That ought to be irrelevant, if the reason for the ticket was vehicle type.

Good luck!

[caelite]

MrJuice said:

Dimensions are irrelevant. Goods are goods. In my case they are physical goods that on this occasion fitted into three carrier bags.

Thanks to everyone else

The sign definitely said loading only. Which is probably why I haven't had a ticket in the past.

Just across the street and further along the same street there are some Goods Vehicle only loading bays. This is not the case where I parked.

I have photographed the relevant sign with my car in the foreground. I suspect the CEO will photograph the signs across the street showing goods vehicles only for the 'evidence' if he knowingly ticketed my car wrongly. If he's made a mistake, it'll probably get cancelled. If when I view the evidence inline there is a photograph of the goods vehicle only sign, I'll definitely fight it.

In the interests of full disclosure, I did take at least ten mins collecting the goods.

It would definetely be worth getting a letter off of the store owner if possible. A lad on a facebook page I follow in my area recently got a ticket on his discovery overturned after parking in a loading bay. He was a kennel owner loading up big ~30kg dog food bags into his SUV from the pet shop he had parked next too, pet shop owner obviously had business dealings with him and I think supplied a letter to go with his appeal.

Just actually looked it up on maps: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.0037934,-4.73341... this bay DID have a 'goods vehicle only' sign too, at the end of the day the bay is there for local businesses though. Although I am not sure but his appeal may have been based on the fact his Land Rover Disco is his business/goods vehicle.

(also note the fact that on google maps the bay on the other side of the road is full of little cars with a van parked on the stupidly wide pavement, our town planners are awful )

[matjk]

watched one of those "parking war" programs , someone used a loading bay to drop off and pick up a box of magazines, about 15kg. He tried the appeal route and it was flatly turned down. You cant use the 'good is goods' argument, it has to be something that could not be carried practically from a car. 3 carrier bags wont cut it, they used examples such as fridges, sofas, pianos. It makes sense as everyone would just park in them and say i went to pick up a box of tic-taks or a safety pin. You should find better grounds to appeal like unclear signage or something along those lines. But simply put you weren't loading so the PCN is valid unless you can think up a valid reason

[MrJuice]

Interesting

I thought the rule was that you pay in advance and can then park and collect. I can produce proof that I paid for my goods in advance.

Obviously dropping into a shop to do your shopping is not the same and not valid.

I shall investigate the links above and see what I find.

[TallPaul]

The size of the goods are totally irrelevant, there was a fairly famous case of a swimming tutor successfully contesting her ticket for picking up a pair of goggles! Collecting something (anything) that has been previously paid for is also fine as long as its in a vehicle required for the use of your business. I've overturned a couple of fines I got whilst collecting keys in my van but unless the plate on the loading bay specifies goods vehicles only, a private car used for business is ok.
You definitely need a letter from the supplier and even if the first appeal fails, research and quote the councils loading bay regulations along with some examples of other successful appeals and you should be fine...

[Red Devil]

Every local authority I know of sub-contracts parking enforcement to a commercial company (e.g Vinci/NSL/etc)
It's a job in which the churn rate is huge. The CEO could be a newbie and got it wrong.
There is also a tendency to shoot first (write the PCN) to keep the strike rate up and make them look good.
Leaving questions about validity to be decided later by someone else.

"Have you heard the one about the traffic warden?" asks my churchgoing neighbour with uncharacteristic viciousness
"As he was being nailed into his coffin he regained consciousness and hammered on the lid to be let out.
"I'm sorry," said the undertaker, "But the paperwork's all done now."

OP, you may find these links of interest.
http://www.trafficsignsandmeanings.co.uk/what-are-...
http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/sites/default/fi...

Edited by Red Devil on Tuesday 22 November 17:31

[Hugo a Gogo]

MrJuice said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

just out of interest, what physical dimensions did your goods have?

Dimensions are irrelevant. Goods are goods. In my case they are physical goods that on this occasion fitted into three carrier bags.

10 mins for 3 carrier bags is taking the piss a bit though, isn't it?

you know and we know you weren't 'loading' by any reasonable definition

still, no-one likes a parking ticket, so good luck with it (honestly)

[MrJuice]

Hugo a Gogo said:

10 mins for 3 carrier bags is taking the piss a bit though, isn't it?

you know and we know you weren't 'loading' by any reasonable definition

still, no-one likes a parking ticket, so good luck with it (honestly)

What if I were carrying 100k worth of goods. Or I was a teeny old lady and had two carrier bags?

Or I had another legitimate reason for using the bay. Like paying for my goods in advance and adhering to their rules. Nb, I didn't make their rules so as long as I adhere to them, I am not taking the piss.

Thanks to everyone who posted advice and links. I'll update the thread after the outcome of my appeal

[TooMany2cvs]

MrJuice said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

10 mins for 3 carrier bags is taking the piss a bit though, isn't it?

you know and we know you weren't 'loading' by any reasonable definition

What if I were carrying 100k worth of goods. Or I was a teeny old lady and had two carrier bags?

What if you'd come to town on the bus?
What if you were in a security van delivering £250k of used tenners?
What if you were collecting a pallet of anvils?
What if my aunt had balls?

MrJuice said:

Or I had another legitimate reason for using the bay. Like paying for my goods in advance...

<scratches head>
No, that's a business's own goods collection bay in their own carpark. A loading bay is intended to provide a short-term position to park for the minimum time necessary to collect larger or unwieldy goods that can't be easily transported to a more normal parking location.

You're cherry-picking one tiny clause out of all of this list (or one similar), and ignoring the rest.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes/rules-...
You're taking one small clause of...

tfl said:

What you should do
- Use a loading bay to collect pre-ordered goods or unload goods that require a vehicle to transport them (eg an item of furniture such as a chest of drawers)

...where "pre-ordered" means "don't go into the shop to choose one out and pay for it, but just go there to collect it when you've already done that", and ignoring completely...

tfl said:

What you shouldn't do
- Stop in the bay without loading or unloading - the bay is not for waiting or parking
- Use the bay to park or go shopping
- Move goods that do not require the use of a vehicle to transport (eg taking a suit to the dry cleaners or collecting a prescription)

Admit it, you know deep down that you're taking the piss, don't you?

Taking that clause that you're cherry picking, you're deliberately reading it as...

tfl said:

What you should do
- Use a loading bay to (collect pre-ordered goods) or (unload goods that require a vehicle to transport them (eg an item of furniture such as a chest of drawers))

...rather than the obvious intention, which is...

tfl said:

What you should do
- Use a loading bay to (collect pre-ordered goods or unload goods) that require a vehicle to transport them (eg an item of furniture such as a chest of drawers)

Edited by TooMany2cvs on Tuesday 22 November 08:12

[jshell]

I chatted to a parking warden in Edinburgh about this. The loading bays have single yellow lines and he said that for a car he'd allow 5 minutes grace before ticketing. Doesn't matter whether it's a new TV or a postcard being 'loaded'.

[AndrewEH1]

jshell said:

I chatted to a parking warden in Edinburgh about this. The loading bays have single yellow lines and he said that for a car he'd allow 5 minutes grace before ticketing. Doesn't matter whether it's a new TV or a postcard being 'loaded'.

I'm in Edinburgh too, our family goes by the rule that you have to load at least something every 5 minutes in order to extend the time a little (for moving flat etc) never had any problem with warden's if it's pretty obvious you're still loading the car up with boxes.