Help with possible court action
Discussion
Hi All, hoping to glean some advice form you experts out there.
Brief history:
Bought a car (Jag XJ) for £15500 - it had done a few miles (111k) on a 12 plate from a small dealer.
Took it for a service and cam belt (which I knew it would need) and was advised it needed a new gearbox! There was also some contamination in the rad - which was assumed by the specialist to be one or both of the egr valves. So total bill to repair in the region of 6k. There was also a gearbox leak and the mechanic topped it up because it was so low.
Now, not being to au fait with what I should and shouldn't do, I had the service and cam belt done but left the other issues. I did drive the car for a few hundred miles, before I did enough research to think the dealer might be responsible to repair it and stopped driving it.
We had a bit of communication but the result is he has been to a solicitor ( the letter is too good for him) and the crux of his argument is I have carried out works on the car - cam belt/oil top up - and I should have done nothing to it and called him. he also says as I have driven it for a little while knowing the issues that may have caused them/made them worse?
To complicate matters a little further, I px'd a car which had an oil leak, which the dealer knew about. He said however there were other issues and it cost him £2000 to repair and he is going to counter sue.
So, my question is really what are my chances in the small claims court, because that is where it looks it is heading.
If it was an older/cheaper car then I think I could stomach it, but for 15k I expect a bit more.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Dave
Brief history:
Bought a car (Jag XJ) for £15500 - it had done a few miles (111k) on a 12 plate from a small dealer.
Took it for a service and cam belt (which I knew it would need) and was advised it needed a new gearbox! There was also some contamination in the rad - which was assumed by the specialist to be one or both of the egr valves. So total bill to repair in the region of 6k. There was also a gearbox leak and the mechanic topped it up because it was so low.
Now, not being to au fait with what I should and shouldn't do, I had the service and cam belt done but left the other issues. I did drive the car for a few hundred miles, before I did enough research to think the dealer might be responsible to repair it and stopped driving it.
We had a bit of communication but the result is he has been to a solicitor ( the letter is too good for him) and the crux of his argument is I have carried out works on the car - cam belt/oil top up - and I should have done nothing to it and called him. he also says as I have driven it for a little while knowing the issues that may have caused them/made them worse?
To complicate matters a little further, I px'd a car which had an oil leak, which the dealer knew about. He said however there were other issues and it cost him £2000 to repair and he is going to counter sue.
So, my question is really what are my chances in the small claims court, because that is where it looks it is heading.
If it was an older/cheaper car then I think I could stomach it, but for 15k I expect a bit more.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Dave
Firstly, with regard to your p/x'd car, you sold that with no warrantee given or implied, so I cant see how he has any case to recover money, I feel he is trying to scare you into backing down.
Regarding your new car, you need to review the terms and conditions of your warrantee, how much is the claim limit, total and per claim, and make sure it doesn't specifically exclude gearboxes,if it's within the scope then I don't see why he shouldn't fix it.
I have had a similar experience with a car dealer trying to escape a warrantee claim under similar circumstances, it was a uphill battle but in the end I got justice, it didn't go to court.
I'm not sure if you have any of the car on finance, but in my case the finance company were very helpful it getting a resolution. Ring them up, politely explain what has happened, make it clear you have no plans to stop paying, and see what they can do. They have a duty of care for the vehicle being fit for purpose.
Regarding your new car, you need to review the terms and conditions of your warrantee, how much is the claim limit, total and per claim, and make sure it doesn't specifically exclude gearboxes,if it's within the scope then I don't see why he shouldn't fix it.
I have had a similar experience with a car dealer trying to escape a warrantee claim under similar circumstances, it was a uphill battle but in the end I got justice, it didn't go to court.
I'm not sure if you have any of the car on finance, but in my case the finance company were very helpful it getting a resolution. Ring them up, politely explain what has happened, make it clear you have no plans to stop paying, and see what they can do. They have a duty of care for the vehicle being fit for purpose.
He is just trying to scare you regarding your P/X car. Totally irrelevant, and there is no comeback on the car you give as P/X as long as you didn't lie about anything or fabricate anything.
I'd also wager he is on dodgy ground about the gearbox. You were perfectly entitled to get the cambelt/service done, as it is needed. Whether you have driven it with a faulty gearbox is probably also irrelevant. Under the law the car you buy from a trader is expected to be of an appropriate condition to the price. £15k isn't beer money, and I'd expect that a court would side with you. Even if it had been driven for a few months or more.
I'd also wager he is on dodgy ground about the gearbox. You were perfectly entitled to get the cambelt/service done, as it is needed. Whether you have driven it with a faulty gearbox is probably also irrelevant. Under the law the car you buy from a trader is expected to be of an appropriate condition to the price. £15k isn't beer money, and I'd expect that a court would side with you. Even if it had been driven for a few months or more.
How on earth has a non franchised garage charged you £6k? For cambelt service and egr what else did they do?
They are obviously very adept at charging and the new gearbox they mention whilst belt and braces
I'd bet my life (assuming there are fault codes or error messages on the dash) it just needs a sump pan and filter change - it's a service item at that age and mileage. And this should cost around £400 supplied and fitted at the most. (Parts are £125 and 90 min job at most)
Sadly you cannot sue the dealer for the servicing work you had carried out without his agreement or knowledge of.
You've been had over by a specialist, call it bill padding or whatever.
They are obviously very adept at charging and the new gearbox they mention whilst belt and braces
I'd bet my life (assuming there are fault codes or error messages on the dash) it just needs a sump pan and filter change - it's a service item at that age and mileage. And this should cost around £400 supplied and fitted at the most. (Parts are £125 and 90 min job at most)
Sadly you cannot sue the dealer for the servicing work you had carried out without his agreement or knowledge of.
You've been had over by a specialist, call it bill padding or whatever.
mjf93 said:
Regarding your new car, you need to review the terms and conditions of your warrantee, how much is the claim limit, total and per claim, and make sure it doesn't specifically exclude gearboxes,if it's within the scope then I don't see why he shouldn't fix it.
No.Absolutely not.
This has nothing to do with a warranty but has to do with the warranted condition of the car.
The O/P hasnt yet told us how long they've had the car, but as long as its less than six months, its up to the seller to prove the fault wasnt there at the time of sale.
The seller cant simply ringfence out bits he doesnt fancy warranting (and thus restrict your consumer rights).
The counter sue is ridiculous and a red herring.
If I read correctly, you have eff all chance of claiming for work done as it seems from your original post you did not allow the original garage the chance to rectify the issue.
If you had given them the chance to fix it and then got work done on top, then you might/should be able to claim the extra work, but you have not allowed them to do anything.
The gearbox you know has an issue and as said you have still driven it without demanding the seller fix it...
You are not on for an easy win through your own actions.
If you had given them the chance to fix it and then got work done on top, then you might/should be able to claim the extra work, but you have not allowed them to do anything.
The gearbox you know has an issue and as said you have still driven it without demanding the seller fix it...
You are not on for an easy win through your own actions.
Du1point8 said:
If I read correctly, you have eff all chance of claiming for work done as it seems from your original post you did not allow the original garage the chance to rectify the issue.
If you had given them the chance to fix it and then got work done on top, then you might/should be able to claim the extra work, but you have not allowed them to do anything.
The gearbox you know has an issue and as said you have still driven it without demanding the seller fix it...
You are not on for an easy win through your own actions.
Hes not attempted to get money back for the service and cam belt change - which (along with topping up the gearbox oil) is the only work he actually got done.If you had given them the chance to fix it and then got work done on top, then you might/should be able to claim the extra work, but you have not allowed them to do anything.
The gearbox you know has an issue and as said you have still driven it without demanding the seller fix it...
You are not on for an easy win through your own actions.
He wants the gearbox fixed and they are declining on the basis of other work having been done to the car which may have impacted the gearbox (?)
Thats how i read it anyway.
Dave55555 said:
Hi All, hoping to glean some advice form you experts out there.
Brief history:
Bought a car (Jag XJ) for £15500 - it had done a few miles (111k) on a 12 plate from a small dealer.
Just a few? Nearly 5 laps of the planet then? Brief history:
Bought a car (Jag XJ) for £15500 - it had done a few miles (111k) on a 12 plate from a small dealer.
In all seriousness what actually is the matter with the gearbox and what did the advert say as to condition?
daemon said:
Du1point8 said:
If I read correctly, you have eff all chance of claiming for work done as it seems from your original post you did not allow the original garage the chance to rectify the issue.
If you had given them the chance to fix it and then got work done on top, then you might/should be able to claim the extra work, but you have not allowed them to do anything.
The gearbox you know has an issue and as said you have still driven it without demanding the seller fix it...
You are not on for an easy win through your own actions.
Hes not attempted to get money back for the service and cam belt change - which (along with topping up the gearbox oil) is the only work he actually got done.If you had given them the chance to fix it and then got work done on top, then you might/should be able to claim the extra work, but you have not allowed them to do anything.
The gearbox you know has an issue and as said you have still driven it without demanding the seller fix it...
You are not on for an easy win through your own actions.
He wants the gearbox fixed and they are declining on the basis of other work having been done to the car which may have impacted the gearbox (?)
Thats how i read it anyway.
'I have driven it for a little while knowing the issues that may have caused them/made them worse?'
For all we know the OP have the mechanical sympathy of an elephant.... yet is still driving a car with a known gearbox issue.
daemon said:
mjf93 said:
Regarding your new car, you need to review the terms and conditions of your warrantee, how much is the claim limit, total and per claim, and make sure it doesn't specifically exclude gearboxes,if it's within the scope then I don't see why he shouldn't fix it.
No.Absolutely not.
This has nothing to do with a warranty but has to do with the warranted condition of the car.
The O/P hasnt yet told us how long they've had the car, but as long as its less than six months, its up to the seller to prove the fault wasnt there at the time of sale.
The seller cant simply ringfence out bits he doesnt fancy warranting (and thus restrict your consumer rights).
The counter sue is ridiculous and a red herring.
You'd be very hard pushed to prove a fault was present at the time of sale unless we're talking < a week imo.
mjf93 said:
daemon said:
mjf93 said:
Regarding your new car, you need to review the terms and conditions of your warrantee, how much is the claim limit, total and per claim, and make sure it doesn't specifically exclude gearboxes,if it's within the scope then I don't see why he shouldn't fix it.
No.Absolutely not.
This has nothing to do with a warranty but has to do with the warranted condition of the car.
The O/P hasnt yet told us how long they've had the car, but as long as its less than six months, its up to the seller to prove the fault wasnt there at the time of sale.
The seller cant simply ringfence out bits he doesnt fancy warranting (and thus restrict your consumer rights).
The counter sue is ridiculous and a red herring.
You'd be very hard pushed to prove a fault was present at the time of sale unless we're talking < a week imo.
A warranty is in addition to that.
The buyer doesnt have to prove the fault was present at the time of sale, the SELLER has to prove that it wasnt.
Guys, first f all thank you for taking the time to reply - you must have better things to do!
A few clarification details if it helps:
No warranty was given by the dealer, but I was under the impression that it has to be fit for purpose, satisfactory quality and as described. Also I believe thought if the fault happened within the first 6 months it was assumed the fault was present at purchase unless the dealer could prove otherwise.
It was bought with no finance - 4k trade in £1000 cash and the rest on debit card
6k was for the reconditioned gearbox (4k) and the egr valves (1k each)
No faults codes on the gearbox - the specialist said it was a mechanical fault and wouldn't show up.
I don't want any money back for the servicing or cam belt - I knew prior to buying
I bought it 16/10/16, faults found on 11/11/16, contacted dealer 21/11/16 and stopped driving it soon after.
I noticed the revs wavering whilst cruising - about 250 up and down on the rev counter. Also the gear changes were rather clunky. I thought it might need a software update (whatever that is - but I've read it on a forum)
Dealer described it as A1 condition - he didn't know if it had had a cambelt done - at that point I should have realised but loved the car - my bad!
I have to be honest I'm a bit of a pussy when driving so never really push it.
I know it's done a lot of miles - but I've been comfortable with that. A 3 litre diesel should be ok for far more.
Cheers
A few clarification details if it helps:
No warranty was given by the dealer, but I was under the impression that it has to be fit for purpose, satisfactory quality and as described. Also I believe thought if the fault happened within the first 6 months it was assumed the fault was present at purchase unless the dealer could prove otherwise.
It was bought with no finance - 4k trade in £1000 cash and the rest on debit card
6k was for the reconditioned gearbox (4k) and the egr valves (1k each)
No faults codes on the gearbox - the specialist said it was a mechanical fault and wouldn't show up.
I don't want any money back for the servicing or cam belt - I knew prior to buying
I bought it 16/10/16, faults found on 11/11/16, contacted dealer 21/11/16 and stopped driving it soon after.
I noticed the revs wavering whilst cruising - about 250 up and down on the rev counter. Also the gear changes were rather clunky. I thought it might need a software update (whatever that is - but I've read it on a forum)
Dealer described it as A1 condition - he didn't know if it had had a cambelt done - at that point I should have realised but loved the car - my bad!
I have to be honest I'm a bit of a pussy when driving so never really push it.
I know it's done a lot of miles - but I've been comfortable with that. A 3 litre diesel should be ok for far more.
Cheers
I'm not expert Dave, but from comments that get regularly made on here by those who are....
I'd say that the mileage works against you (cars are expected to deteriorate with miles)
Identifying the fault 4 weeks after purchase is very significantly in your favour.
I'd be expecting the gear box issue to be ressolved by the trader and you may have to swallow the sunk costs so far?
Good luck with it anyway, the 4 weeks to having the fault identified should be pretty compelling evidence that the fault was there at sale (Assuming it's a deterioration type fault as opposed to sudden failure which is how it sounds).
I'd say that the mileage works against you (cars are expected to deteriorate with miles)
Identifying the fault 4 weeks after purchase is very significantly in your favour.
I'd be expecting the gear box issue to be ressolved by the trader and you may have to swallow the sunk costs so far?
Good luck with it anyway, the 4 weeks to having the fault identified should be pretty compelling evidence that the fault was there at sale (Assuming it's a deterioration type fault as opposed to sudden failure which is how it sounds).
Dave55555 said:
Guys, first f all thank you for taking the time to reply - you must have better things to do!
A few clarification details if it helps:
No warranty was given by the dealer, but I was under the impression that it has to be fit for purpose, satisfactory quality and as described. Also I believe thought if the fault happened within the first 6 months it was assumed the fault was present at purchase unless the dealer could prove otherwise.
It was bought with no finance - 4k trade in £1000 cash and the rest on debit card
6k was for the reconditioned gearbox (4k) and the egr valves (1k each)
No faults codes on the gearbox - the specialist said it was a mechanical fault and wouldn't show up.
I don't want any money back for the servicing or cam belt - I knew prior to buying
I bought it 16/10/16, faults found on 11/11/16, contacted dealer 21/11/16 and stopped driving it soon after.
I noticed the revs wavering whilst cruising - about 250 up and down on the rev counter. Also the gear changes were rather clunky. I thought it might need a software update (whatever that is - but I've read it on a forum)
Dealer described it as A1 condition - he didn't know if it had had a cambelt done - at that point I should have realised but loved the car - my bad!
I have to be honest I'm a bit of a pussy when driving so never really push it.
I know it's done a lot of miles - but I've been comfortable with that. A 3 litre diesel should be ok for far more.
Cheers
The dealer should be addressing this. You identified it early on, and i take it the garage that looked at it would provide a statement saying when they looked at it.A few clarification details if it helps:
No warranty was given by the dealer, but I was under the impression that it has to be fit for purpose, satisfactory quality and as described. Also I believe thought if the fault happened within the first 6 months it was assumed the fault was present at purchase unless the dealer could prove otherwise.
It was bought with no finance - 4k trade in £1000 cash and the rest on debit card
6k was for the reconditioned gearbox (4k) and the egr valves (1k each)
No faults codes on the gearbox - the specialist said it was a mechanical fault and wouldn't show up.
I don't want any money back for the servicing or cam belt - I knew prior to buying
I bought it 16/10/16, faults found on 11/11/16, contacted dealer 21/11/16 and stopped driving it soon after.
I noticed the revs wavering whilst cruising - about 250 up and down on the rev counter. Also the gear changes were rather clunky. I thought it might need a software update (whatever that is - but I've read it on a forum)
Dealer described it as A1 condition - he didn't know if it had had a cambelt done - at that point I should have realised but loved the car - my bad!
I have to be honest I'm a bit of a pussy when driving so never really push it.
I know it's done a lot of miles - but I've been comfortable with that. A 3 litre diesel should be ok for far more.
Cheers
I think if this went to court it would rule in your favour BUT i'd take proper legal advice from a solicitor dealing in this sort of issue.
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