Quick (I hope!) 'no will' advice please

[ali_kat]

Good afternoon & thank you. I need some help to put my Aunts mind at rest & I'm asking here as nowhere is open

Background

In the early hours of yesterday morning my Uncle died, he was 96 (almost) & has been praying for it for a while; and he went how he wanted. Due to Christmas we can't do anything until tomorrow.

He hasn't left a Will.

He & my Aunt have been married since 1955, everything is in joint names and there's no mortgage or other debt.

My Aunt is now planning on making a Will as she knows she has to in order to leave stuff to me & others (I'm her closest relative).

There's a house & some savings, well under IHT

Can anyone please advise on...

Is it really as simple as they have thought; That because everything is in joint names she gets it all without a Will?

There's no life insurance, do we need probate? If so is it better to do ourselves or employ a Solicitor?

Has anyone any advice please?

Many thanks

A

[Shelsleyf2]

There is a U.K.Gov website to establish what happens when someone dies intestate ( No will) Simply answer the questions on the site and it will give you the legal position. From memory if they died in England or Wales and the estate value is less than £250,000 then the surviving partner gets it all.

Hope this helps, and your Aunt needs to make a will !!!

[98elise]

As far as I know yes. My father in law died this year with no will and everything went to my mother in law as you would expect.

[Jasandjules]

As above, it will all go to your Aunt in the absence of a will.

[anonymous-user]

Shelsleyf2 said:

There is a U.K.Gov website to establish what happens when someone dies intestate ( No will) Simply answer the questions on the site and it will give you the legal position. From memory if they died in England or Wales and the estate value is less than £250,000 then the surviving partner gets it all.

Jeeeez that was an easy find
https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/if-th...
Everything you need.
And inheritance tax is £325k upto £650k if you get married persons relief etc

[Red Devil]

ali_kat said:

There's a house & some savings, well under IHT

Can anyone please advise on...

Is it really as simple as they have thought; That because everything is in joint names she gets it all without a Will?

There's no life insurance, do we need probate? If so is it better to do ourselves or employ a Solicitor?

A Grant of Probate is issued to the executor/s of a will. Where someone dies intestate it will be a Grant of Representation as administrator.
https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/if-th...

Explanation of the difference here. It is possible that a GoR may not even be needed. It could come down to whether any organisation she has to deal with won't take instructions without one.
More here - https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/relationships/de...

If the value of the whole estate is under the IHT threshold, it should be simple to administer. All the better if you are able to assist her with the paperwork and formalities.
Bear in mind that your role will be confined to that: you will not be able to give instructions or sign anything.
Unless there is an unforeseen complication or she has a burning desire to offload the job there should be no need to employ a solicitor. It will just be burdening the estate unnecessarily imo.

Been there 4 times and have the T-shirt. The only real downside is the need to keep a proper detailed paper record/audit trail of everything that has been done.
Plus the time it takes to finalise everything (think in months rather than weeks). She may find that some people she has to deal with require a rocket up their backside.

There are several Probate Registries in England - http://www.probateforms.info/probate-registries/
All my interactions have been with the Principal Office in London. By a considerable margin the best government organisation I have ever had dealings with.

A final tip: obtain more than one copy of the death certificate (and grant if one is needed). Some organisations demand sight of an original rather than a photocopy.
So work out how many you might need. Better to have extras than the delay involved in faffing around applying for more during the administration phase.

HTH.

[Red Devil]

speedyguy said:

Shelsleyf2 said:

There is a U.K.Gov website to establish what happens when someone dies intestate ( No will) Simply answer the questions on the site and it will give you the legal position. From memory if they died in England or Wales and the estate value is less than £250,000 then the surviving partner gets it all.

Jeeeez that was an easy find
https://www.gov.uk/wills-probate-inheritance/if-th...
Everything you need.
And inheritance tax is £325k upto £650k if you get married persons relief etc

The house will pass to a surviving spouse who is a joint tenant (not tenant-in-common) outside of IHT anyway.
The £650k will only apply on the second death and if the IHT nil rate band is unused on the first.
From April next year there will be an additional £100k nil rate band applicable specifically to the dwelling.
And then only if left to the next direct generation/s (i.e. child/ren or grandchild/ren, not nephew/s or niece/s).

[ali_kat]

Thank you all

Just to clarify... as it's all in joint names the estate = 1/2 of the house & cash in bank, car etc.

[HoHoHo]

My best mate of nearly 40 years died abroad in September last year at 49 and unfortunately without a will.

In short everything in joint names will be going to his wife. Everything he placed in trust (pension for example) is going to his wife and everything in his name is now being split between his wife and children from his first marriage. The first £250k to her. The balance split 50% between his wife and 25% per child.

He also had a business, he owned 50% and his wife owned 50% which was still trading and making a profit.

He's been gone 16 months and it's all still going on - to be fair not helped by his business not being shut down as quickly as perhaps it could have been.

He died as I was taxiing at Gatwick whilst flying out to see him in hospital as a surprise and when I arrived his wife was in a foreign country with no credit card or cash. Fortunately I was in a position to help and I personally spent £5000 repatriating his body and on various other fees and still officially haven't been paid yet. His wife made sure I have had money back as quickly as she could but nothing from the solicitor yet.

It's a bloody mess and a great example of how a few quid spent would have saved a huge amount of time and money.

[bladebloke]

ali_kat said:

Thank you all

Just to clarify... as it's all in joint names the estate = 1/2 of the house & cash in bank, car etc.

Legally, title to assets held jointly passes automatically to the remaining spouse by operation of law (called survivorship).

However, that doesn't mean there's not admin to do with the organisations holding the assets and what you need will for the administration of the estate will depend on the requirements of those organisations. For banks etc I would expect that an original death certificate would be enough to be able to change the accounts to the sole name.

The one to watch out for will be the house. Many people who hold their houses 'jointly' do in fact hold them as tenants in common, rather than truly jointly (I.e. As joint tenants). In that case, the Land Registry will usually accept certification from a solicitor acting for the executors of a will that the surviving spouse has become solely and beneficially entitled, but I don't know how that would work on an intestacy, quite. It may be that a solicitor acting could still provide the certification if it can be proved to them that there are no direct descendants (and therefore your aunt has become solely beneficially entitled) but my instinct tells me that solicitors might be reluctant to make such a certification and if so, letters of administration would probably be needed. The Land Registry might be able to tell you more about their requirements in this situation.

Download the title register for the house (£3) and look at section B. If there's a restriction (saying something that starts "no disposition by a sole proprietor...") then it's held as tenants in common. If there's no restriction, it's held as joint tenants and all that should be needed for the LR is a death certificate.

Good luck

[ali_kat]

That's awful HoHoHo, legally debtors should be paid first, after the funeral

Thank you Bladebloke, that's useful about the house as she does want to sell it.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

HoHoHo said:

My best mate of nearly 40 years died abroad in September last year at 49 and unfortunately without a will......

I personally spent £5000 repatriating his body and on various other fees and still officially haven't been paid yet. His wife made sure I have had money back as quickly as she could but nothing from the solicitor yet.

It's a bloody mess and a great example of how a few quid spent would have saved a huge amount of time and money.

So 49 years old, no will despite a range of assets, and no travel insurance. With respect, pretty foolish.

I just don't get how so many people don't have a will. I did one as soon as I bought my first house, and have amended it as circumstances changed in my life.

[anonymous-user]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I just don't get how so many people don't have a will. I did one as soon as I bought my first house, and have amended it as circumstances changed in my life.

I'm wondering how about this amending thing, we did our "mirror" wills over 10 years ago when out 2nd (& last child) was born.
Since my wife paseed away earlier this year I'm not yet seeing the point of changing it as nothing has changed as everything still goes to my 2 children (or survivors etc) as wife not here and she had no family etc.

[HoHoHo]

ali_kat said:

That's awful HoHoHo, legally debtors should be paid first, after the funeral

Thanks ali_kat, was st and still is, there's not a day that goes by I don't miss him

TwigtheWonderkid said:

So 49 years old, no will despite a range of assets, and no travel insurance. With respect, pretty foolish.

I just don't get how so many people don't have a will. I did one as soon as I bought my first house, and have amended it as circumstances changed in my life.

I didn't say he has no travel insurance, it's more foolish than that

He was diagnosed with nose and threat cancer late 2014 and after 6 months of intense treatment was given the all clear. Two months later he was diagnosed with a small spot on his lung and one in his brain but had been told all would be well.

He went on holiday a month after being told that news with travel insurance but neglected to mention the new cancer to the insurance company.

Whilst he didn't die of the new spots, he died of double pneumonia as a result of the original chemotherapy reducing the effectiveness of his immune system - however the insurance company simply didn't want to know because he hadn't been honest.

We were as close as two best friends of that length of time could be. We both own our own businesses and have been pretty succesful. I've lost count of the times we discussed how we would spend our retirement, pensions, golf and general st, all the things you do. I had no idea he didn't have a will and I can't ever remember asking to be honest and just assumed he would have one.

It's caused a huge rift between his wife and children from his previous marriage and it's all got very unecessarily messy and is frankly a situation that simply should arise. His children are being advised (as ever) by armchair lawyers and believe they are due far more than they are. The matter is made worse because they have no idea what their Dad was actually worth but assume he's worth a whole lot more than he was and they really don't have much time for his current wife. They have I'm sad to say shown their true colours and whilst I'm godfather to his eldest son I feel sad for them and a huge amount of disappointment for Mark.

To bring everyone back to earth with a bump and a reality check, I've actually lost five close friends over the last four years. Four just under 50 and one a month ago 56. Not all cancer, one a blood clot in his leg due to a broken ankle from playing rugby. One heart attack (Carl did enjoy life!), one cancer of the stomach (2 months from diagnosis to death), one a brain hemorrhage and of course Mark.

I have a somewhat different view of life now and if I'm honest I sometimes worry if I'm next! But what I have done is to have a huge amount of life insurance in place for my family (many, many 0's if I go) so my wife and children are very comfortable and whilst we have a basic will I'm going through the process of a detailed will simply because even though I'm an MD and whilst not powerfully built I do have quite a lot of complicated assets and I will join my mates one day.

Anyway, off track slightly for which I apologise however if anything I hope it reiterates the importance of having a will!

[ali_kat]

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ali_kat said:

+1

[pacoryan]

And you did write that Life Assurance in Trust, didn't you? If you didn't - do it ASAP. Sorry for your losses and I concur with your sentiments entirely - I speak to people every day who swither about spending a few quid to sort a Will, LPA's and Trusts and I also regularly speak to people who are trying to unpick an almighty mess left by people like that!

[HoHoHo]

pacoryan said:

And you did write that Life Assurance in Trust, didn't you? If you didn't - do it ASAP. Sorry for your losses and I concur with your sentiments entirely - I speak to people every day who swither about spending a few quid to sort a Will, LPA's and Trusts and I also regularly speak to people who are trying to unpick an almighty mess left by people like that!

Yes, they are 'all' in trust!

As you can imagine my own scenario is made more complicated because of business and commercial property and whilst it's all in joint names we want to reduce any tax due as far as we can

[Red Devil]

bladebloke said:

The one to watch out for will be the house. Many people who hold their houses 'jointly' do in fact hold them as tenants in common, rather than truly jointly (I.e. As joint tenants). In that case, the Land Registry will usually accept certification from a solicitor acting for the executors of a will that the surviving spouse has become solely and beneficially entitled, but I don't know how that would work on an intestacy, quite.

In which case the intestacy rules will come into play, so with tenants-in-common it will depend on the value of the deceased's share of the equity in the house.
It doesn't take much in London and the south east for it to become a potential problem. Bear in mind also that the split might not be 50/50!
A tenancy-in-common can have an IHT advantage in certain circumstances for estate planning. But doing so without also making a will is not a sensible strategy.

bladebloke said:

It may be that a solicitor acting could still provide the certification if it can be proved to them that there are no direct descendants (and therefore your aunt has become solely beneficially entitled) but my instinct tells me that solicitors might be reluctant to make such a certification and if so, letters of administration would probably be needed. The Land Registry might be able to tell you more about their requirements in this situation.

Direct descendants are exactly what I had in mind when I mentioned a potential problem above.

[ali_kat]

There are no possible descendants, he was the youngest child of 3, 10 years younger than the middle child.

His brother & sister are gone, as are her children & there were no grandchildren - thanks to WWII