Discussion
Used car seller here.
We sold a car in the last 6 weeks. All going well but customer suspects DPF has been removed.We have not had it back to investigate.
Its not massively expensive it was a 56 Golf Diesel 100k sold cheap. It had been MOT tested by 1 of the 3 places we use for MOT prior to sale.
I don't mind just giving the guy his money back if thats what he wants and list the car on ebay with DPF removed and let it go.
Any legal idea as the customer mentioned change in MOT legislations but I can only see rumours not actual fact of this and can't see every MOT station being able to physically test if a dpf has been removed without an upgraded load of equipment.
Thanks in advance.
We sold a car in the last 6 weeks. All going well but customer suspects DPF has been removed.We have not had it back to investigate.
Its not massively expensive it was a 56 Golf Diesel 100k sold cheap. It had been MOT tested by 1 of the 3 places we use for MOT prior to sale.
I don't mind just giving the guy his money back if thats what he wants and list the car on ebay with DPF removed and let it go.
Any legal idea as the customer mentioned change in MOT legislations but I can only see rumours not actual fact of this and can't see every MOT station being able to physically test if a dpf has been removed without an upgraded load of equipment.
Thanks in advance.
The current test is a visual inspection. Most times the original DPF is opened and welded shut so looks OEM.
Future or upcoming changes cannot be used surely, to claim money back.
What engine was it? Only the PPD170 golfs (tdi 170) had DPFs. 2.0 (BKD 140) did not, no UK Golf Mk5 with a BKD had a DPF unless it was a rare import model.
Future or upcoming changes cannot be used surely, to claim money back.
What engine was it? Only the PPD170 golfs (tdi 170) had DPFs. 2.0 (BKD 140) did not, no UK Golf Mk5 with a BKD had a DPF unless it was a rare import model.
JimmyConwayNW said:
We sold a car in the last 6 weeks. All going well but customer suspects DPF has been removed.We have not had it back to investigate.
Why does the customer suspect this? Have they had it up on a lift to have a proper look underneath? Has an idiot light come on because of it? I'd be thinking along the lines of the buyer has buyer's remorse / a nagging partner saying they don't like the car or that they have stolen the DPF to put on another car and want to return this one minus a DPF so they get one for free. JimmyConwayNW said:
No EML on, no running issues so if it has been removed its been removed properly and mapped out.
It is the 170 model with a dpf as standard.
Customer reckons its illegal and he cant be driving an illegal car was the overall feeling I got.
I see, well I would look at it and then say OK you can have your money back if not, someone else will buy it I'm sure.It is the 170 model with a dpf as standard.
Customer reckons its illegal and he cant be driving an illegal car was the overall feeling I got.
Or you could play hardball and say it was fine and passed all inspections. It's not considered normal to remove downpipes and check for DPF's to be in place and refuse to refund.
Depends how you want to play it, customer sounds like a nightmare, I would just take it back and sell it on to someone else, I'm sure there will be no issues with it. Depending on mileage done I would also knock some money off the refund.
From the Governments own website and MOT guidance notes
UK Gov said:
It is an offence under the Road vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a(3))1 to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car or £2,500 for a light goods vehicle.
So I would say that the customer is correctblueg33 said:
From the Governments own website and MOT guidance notes
Only if it subsequently failed the emissions test. In this case it passed therefore irrelevant.UK Gov said:
It is an offence under the Road vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a(3))1 to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car or £2,500 for a light goods vehicle.
So I would say that the customer is correctKevinCamaroSS said:
blueg33 said:
From the Governments own website and MOT guidance notes
Only if it subsequently failed the emissions test. In this case it passed therefore irrelevant.UK Gov said:
It is an offence under the Road vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations (Regulation 61a(3))1 to use a vehicle which has been modified in such a way that it no longer complies with the air pollutant emissions standards it was designed to meet. Removal of a DPF will almost invariably contravene these requirements, making the vehicle illegal for road use. The potential penalties for failing to comply with Regulation 61a are fines of up to £1,000 for a car or £2,500 for a light goods vehicle.
So I would say that the customer is correctAs a trader selling a cheapo car why would you want to take the reputational risk, let alone have some potential liability?
The standard it's required to continue to meet is the one related to Type Approval, which is very different to MOT. An MOT pass does not prevent the potential for the user of the vehicle to be committing an offence for not having a compliant vehicle.
I'd suggest refunding and be more careful in future when buying/selling diesels to ask the question of the person you're obtaining the vehicle from, or carry out your own checks with diagnostic equipment.
I'd suggest refunding and be more careful in future when buying/selling diesels to ask the question of the person you're obtaining the vehicle from, or carry out your own checks with diagnostic equipment.
Curious... very similar case on MSE ( http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php...) but from other perspective. Year and car match!
Stuzza said:
Curious... very similar case on MSE ( http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php...) but from other perspective. Year and car match!
Intruiging... !!I'd be happy personally. Case of reading loads of BS online and running around with your hair on fire.
Adrian E said:
The standard it's required to continue to meet is the one related to Type Approval, which is very different to MOT. An MOT pass does not prevent the potential for the user of the vehicle to be committing an offence for not having a compliant vehicle.
I'd suggest refunding and be more careful in future when buying/selling diesels to ask the question of the person you're obtaining the vehicle from, or carry out your own checks with diagnostic equipment.
What does the standard say on emissions? The type approval requires the fitting of a DPF, this car still has one visibly. The smoke test can be affected by a variety of causes such as re-mapping, tuning boxes. Provided it passes the tests it is fine.I'd suggest refunding and be more careful in future when buying/selling diesels to ask the question of the person you're obtaining the vehicle from, or carry out your own checks with diagnostic equipment.
KevinCamaroSS said:
What does the standard say on emissions? The type approval requires the fitting of a DPF, this car still has one visibly. The smoke test can be affected by a variety of causes such as re-mapping, tuning boxes. Provided it passes the tests it is fine.
The Euro standards don't require a specific technology - it's for the manufacturer to meet the limits for the various pollutants that are measured (details below) over the test cyclehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_st...
That meant that by Euro 5 the overwhelming majority of diesels required a DPF to meet the 0.005 limit for PM, reduced from 0.025 at Euro 4. Some started fitting it at Euro 4 to test the tech - there might be an argument that a Euro 4 vehicle with DPF doesn't have to have it, as without it would still meet the threshold for a Euro 4. If it was approved as Euro 5 AND it required it to meet the Euro 5 limit values it will need to have it in use too.
The C&U requirement is for the use of the vehicle to be compliant with that Euro standard. If a DPF is gutted it is highly unlikely (read impossible) to meet the PM requirement, even allowing for deterioration of the emissions control system with age. Gutting a DPF fools the visual inspection, it does not indicate it's working, or if it's effective.
The smoke test is a simple proxy for roadworthiness purposes, with very high smoke opacity allowed (1.5) compared to what a modern diesel with working aftertreatment can achieve (0.1-0.2). A type approval test takes over a day, by the time you've prepped the vehicle, left it to soak to the correct temperature, done the test, then you have to measure/weigh what you've bagged. It can't be used for roadworthiness inspection.
It's feasible that a remapped vehicle would comply with the type approval still, if you assume a remap hasn't diddled with the cold start strategy or buggered up the EGR, since the drive cycle is very low energy demand. The real world emissions could be a lot worse, but that's not part of the type approval cycle (yet!)
Does that answer your question?
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