S172 - rear of car - cannot identify the driver
Discussion
Hi all,
Me or the wife have triggered an attended speed camera - but they got us going away from them by the sounds of it.
Have contacted the TVP for photographic evidence and they have advised that its rear facing view of the car and in their words she could not identify the driver - how do i proceed with the S172 if we cannot identify who was driving, its a car we drive regulary on our normal routes.
Cheers in advance.
Regards
Hughesie
Me or the wife have triggered an attended speed camera - but they got us going away from them by the sounds of it.
Have contacted the TVP for photographic evidence and they have advised that its rear facing view of the car and in their words she could not identify the driver - how do i proceed with the S172 if we cannot identify who was driving, its a car we drive regulary on our normal routes.
Cheers in advance.
Regards
Hughesie
What speed and what limit? (just in case you are eligible for a course).
You either try to work out who was driving or you toss a coin and nominate either yourself or your wife.
Getting into correspondence saying that you can't be sure who it was will end up with 6 points, a fine of around £500, court costs and an endorsement code that will hurt your insurance for the next 5 years.
You either try to work out who was driving or you toss a coin and nominate either yourself or your wife.
Getting into correspondence saying that you can't be sure who it was will end up with 6 points, a fine of around £500, court costs and an endorsement code that will hurt your insurance for the next 5 years.
Hughesie said:
Hi all,
Me or the wife have triggered an attended speed camera - but they got us going away from them by the sounds of it.
Have contacted the TVP for photographic evidence and they have advised that its rear facing view of the car and in their words she could not identify the driver - how do i proceed with the S172 if we cannot identify who was driving, its a car we drive regulary on our normal routes.
Cheers in advance.
Regards
Hughesie
If you as registered keeper state you do not know who was driving you will get summonsed for failing to provide the driver information. If in court you can successfully convince them you do not know who was driving no offence will be recorded against you, if not you will get 6 points and a fine.Me or the wife have triggered an attended speed camera - but they got us going away from them by the sounds of it.
Have contacted the TVP for photographic evidence and they have advised that its rear facing view of the car and in their words she could not identify the driver - how do i proceed with the S172 if we cannot identify who was driving, its a car we drive regulary on our normal routes.
Cheers in advance.
Regards
Hughesie
If it was me and I genuinely 100% could not say who was driving I would go to court and try and convince them, if you are not being wholly truthful and know who it was I would fess up as you will struggle in court lying.
I had a similar situation in 2005 with Cheshire police. My car was caught with only a photo from behind, but it was being used by one of 4 agency drivers who had been delivering trucks to a customer. I left my car at the customers in the morning and returned to work in a 2 seat van, Later in the day 4 agency drivers took the trucks down there and came back in my car.
By the time the NIP arrived with me it was about 7 weeks later, as the original NIP went to the lease company. I named the four potential drivers, and their agency and explained the situation in a covering letter, and left it at that.
The agency tells me that the police contacted each of the drivers, none of them could (chose not to) remember who was driving and it came down to the police having to prove who was the driver.
I was contacted again by the police months later, asking for copy of driver records, which proved that I had picked up the small van in the morning and that the four drivers had delivered the trucks, and returned in mine, but crucially none of them had signed the return journey log. That was the last I heard of it, but the agency said that none of their drivers were prosecuted for it either.
Various people have told me that the S172 form is based on being self-incriminating, but if two people are named it puts the onus on the police to prove the charge, but I am not sure if this is true, or if the police simply decided to drop the matter
By the time the NIP arrived with me it was about 7 weeks later, as the original NIP went to the lease company. I named the four potential drivers, and their agency and explained the situation in a covering letter, and left it at that.
The agency tells me that the police contacted each of the drivers, none of them could (chose not to) remember who was driving and it came down to the police having to prove who was the driver.
I was contacted again by the police months later, asking for copy of driver records, which proved that I had picked up the small van in the morning and that the four drivers had delivered the trucks, and returned in mine, but crucially none of them had signed the return journey log. That was the last I heard of it, but the agency said that none of their drivers were prosecuted for it either.
Various people have told me that the S172 form is based on being self-incriminating, but if two people are named it puts the onus on the police to prove the charge, but I am not sure if this is true, or if the police simply decided to drop the matter
No bench is going to believe that two adults cannot work out who was driving a vehicle less than two weeks prior to a ticket arriving. All these stories we read about "people changing drivers many many times on a single journey" are just that - stories.
So you need to get your heads together, what day of the week was it. What direction were you travelling in when snapped. What was the journey in aid of. Did you stop on the way? Who was driving when you stopped, who continued the drive once you drove away.
If all this fails to jog the memory, then decide on the most likely driver and nominate them with a "definite" statement - so no "We think it was....." on any of the paperwork.
You'll get your fixed penalty offer which is far better than the 6pts for failing to nominate.
As for the post about who the onus is on - there is no doubt the vehicle was there at the time, so the onus is on the RK to work out who was driving the vehicle at the time.
If, after an investigation, there is no possible way to work it out - take the " we cannot identify" option and have your day in court. But you will get 6pts and a higher fine.
So you need to get your heads together, what day of the week was it. What direction were you travelling in when snapped. What was the journey in aid of. Did you stop on the way? Who was driving when you stopped, who continued the drive once you drove away.
If all this fails to jog the memory, then decide on the most likely driver and nominate them with a "definite" statement - so no "We think it was....." on any of the paperwork.
You'll get your fixed penalty offer which is far better than the 6pts for failing to nominate.
As for the post about who the onus is on - there is no doubt the vehicle was there at the time, so the onus is on the RK to work out who was driving the vehicle at the time.
If, after an investigation, there is no possible way to work it out - take the " we cannot identify" option and have your day in court. But you will get 6pts and a higher fine.
Hughesie said:
Thanks - we have 4 cars and use this route almost daily neither of us keep a log of what car we use on a daily basis - Wife is blond, i'm not and you genuinely cannot see who was driving the car in question.
Thanks for all the responses to date.
Problem is that whilst that may well be true, you will need to convince TPTB that it's true and not simply a half-arsed attempt to dodge a ticket. 90% of "Oooh, I can't possibly remember" will be exactly that. So unless you can convince them that you really cannot possible be reasonably expected to know, then the RK is likely to be sitting in court explaining why they aren't guilty of failing to identify.Thanks for all the responses to date.
Is there really nothing about that day, or the days either side, that'd help to jog your memory?
Stoofa said:
No bench is going to believe that two adults cannot work out who was driving a vehicle less than two weeks prior to a ticket arriving.
If it's a leased vehicle it will definitely be more than 2 weeks (see the post above yours). The RK has 28 days beginning with the day on which the notice is served to nominate the driver. After that the prosecuting authority has 6 months to get its a**e in gear. Depends on available resources how quickly that will happen.Stoofa said:
If all this fails to jog the memory, then decide on the most likely driver and nominate them with a "definite" statement - so no "We think it was....." on any of the paperwork.
Deciding on who is the 'most likely' is not necessarily a good idea. In certain cases it might genuinely be difficult to be sure which person was driving.Taking points which actually belong to another party has the potential to get you into serious trouble (viz: Huhne & Pryce).
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About 10 years ago now my wife and I went down this route. There were fewer cameras about then and our car was actually caught by a copper stood at the side of the road with a speed gun who just wrote the reg down.
We thought as they could not show which of us was driving, we wouldn't put too much effort into working it out and just throw it all back for them to sort out. The car was registered in my wife's name so a few months later she was up before the beak and hit with 6 pts and a £300+ fine for failure to furnish.
Unless you've got a case like Steve's above, you're better off just tossing a coin to see which of you will take either the SAC (if offered) or the £100 and 3 points. I know that unless you are absolutely sure who was driving you may technically be perverting the course of justice by just offering up a name to take the fall, but unless you're a high profile politician, no one will care. They just want your money really.
We thought as they could not show which of us was driving, we wouldn't put too much effort into working it out and just throw it all back for them to sort out. The car was registered in my wife's name so a few months later she was up before the beak and hit with 6 pts and a £300+ fine for failure to furnish.
Unless you've got a case like Steve's above, you're better off just tossing a coin to see which of you will take either the SAC (if offered) or the £100 and 3 points. I know that unless you are absolutely sure who was driving you may technically be perverting the course of justice by just offering up a name to take the fall, but unless you're a high profile politician, no one will care. They just want your money really.
Red Devil said:
Deciding on who is the 'most likely' is not necessarily a good idea. In certain cases it might genuinely be difficult to be sure which person was driving.
Taking points which actually belong to another party has the potential to get you into serious trouble (viz: Huhne & Pryce).
The idea that you're facing PCoJ for nominating husband or wife for this is OTT nonsense. It's when there's a deliberate attempt to circumvent the process. It's the OP's choice whether to choose to own up, or try to convince the beak otherwise. He will struggle to avoid six points though if it's just between him and his wife. Taking points which actually belong to another party has the potential to get you into serious trouble (viz: Huhne & Pryce).
If you nominate either yourself or your wife there is no way that you will be facing a Perverting the Course of Justice charge. You've said that it was one or other of you driving and that it could have been either of you.
Making a "best guess" - even if it's the wrong one - is absolutely fine. It's only PCoJ if you nominate someone who was definitely not driving and/or could not have been driving. This was where Huhne/Pryce came unstuck. She nominated him as the driver when it was a matter of public record that she had just finished a speaking engagement at least 90 minutes drive from where the offence took place whereas he had just landed at Stansted 30 minutes earlier and the offence took place on the M11 near Stansted. (exact timings may be wrong but the general idea is correct).
The important point is that if after you've looked at credit card bills, phone records, etc., you still can't work out for sure who was driving you just name one or other of you. Don't enclose a letter along the lines of "We're not sure but as I'm the RK and main driver it was probably me so I'll take the points". You'll end up in court and you won't like the end result.
Making a "best guess" - even if it's the wrong one - is absolutely fine. It's only PCoJ if you nominate someone who was definitely not driving and/or could not have been driving. This was where Huhne/Pryce came unstuck. She nominated him as the driver when it was a matter of public record that she had just finished a speaking engagement at least 90 minutes drive from where the offence took place whereas he had just landed at Stansted 30 minutes earlier and the offence took place on the M11 near Stansted. (exact timings may be wrong but the general idea is correct).
The important point is that if after you've looked at credit card bills, phone records, etc., you still can't work out for sure who was driving you just name one or other of you. Don't enclose a letter along the lines of "We're not sure but as I'm the RK and main driver it was probably me so I'll take the points". You'll end up in court and you won't like the end result.
Stoofa said:
No bench is going to believe that two adults cannot work out who was driving a vehicle less than two weeks prior to a ticket arriving. All these stories we read about "people changing drivers many many times on a single journey" are just that - stories.
there is an exception to every rule, and i think it's me and my wife.especially during the week if she picks me up from the station i couldn't tell you who drove last friday.
we often change drivers on a journey, normally to me driving, but we have done it the other way.
Red Devil said:
Deciding on who is the 'most likely' is not necessarily a good idea. In certain cases it might genuinely be difficult to be sure which person was driving.
Taking points which actually belong to another party has the potential to get you into serious trouble (viz: Huhne & Pryce).
Deliberately taking someone else's point in order to keep them from being banned or whatever is nothing like this case, where they can't remember so are going to plump for the person they think is the most likely to have been driving. Taking points which actually belong to another party has the potential to get you into serious trouble (viz: Huhne & Pryce).
No chance of getting into any trouble.
Stoofa said:
No bench is going to believe that two adults cannot work out who was driving a vehicle less than two weeks prior to a ticket arriving.
Really? The one I was in front of did.douglasb said:
The important point is that if after you've looked at credit card bills, phone records, etc., you still can't work out for sure who was driving you just name one or other of you.
Not necessarily. There is another choice.Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff