Undeclared mods you have/haven't got away with.
Discussion
There seems to have been a few threads recently where people have been worrying about undeclared mods where they've needed to make a claim on their own insurance policy or a third party policy.
Some people think that an undeclared mod will result in the policy being voided from inception leaving the policyholder with a lifelong garnishing of their salary because they killed a kitten. Other's have said that their insurance company didn't give a toss about the carbon fibre ironing board they fitted to the boot of their car and still paid out.
I'm not after discussion of the policy considerations of the insurer's. I'm just after real life examples of people's undeclared mods and what happened when the insurers found out.
My own story involves a Mk 1 Audi TT which I managed to drive into someone's fence around 15 years ago. It had a set of 18" replica wheels on from a slightly later model. Not declared.
The insurer paid out for the damage to the third party fence and garden and repaired my car too. They even said it had replica wheels on which had to be specially ordered from somewhere.
Some people think that an undeclared mod will result in the policy being voided from inception leaving the policyholder with a lifelong garnishing of their salary because they killed a kitten. Other's have said that their insurance company didn't give a toss about the carbon fibre ironing board they fitted to the boot of their car and still paid out.
I'm not after discussion of the policy considerations of the insurer's. I'm just after real life examples of people's undeclared mods and what happened when the insurers found out.
My own story involves a Mk 1 Audi TT which I managed to drive into someone's fence around 15 years ago. It had a set of 18" replica wheels on from a slightly later model. Not declared.
The insurer paid out for the damage to the third party fence and garden and repaired my car too. They even said it had replica wheels on which had to be specially ordered from somewhere.
I have a Pedal Box on my car that's undeclared. Insurer couldn't decide what it was and tried to say it gave more power. I corrected them to say it didn't, it just altered throttle responsiveness and the girl didn't have a clue, underwriter she spoke too didn't have a clue. Eventually I lost my patience, told her to forget it, slapped it on the car and forgot about it.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
So you s
t-post in other forums then.I forgot the name of the insurer, but they provided cheaper cover for a "modified" car compared to other insurers if the car was kept stock, it made having a custom downpipe back system on the mr2 worth while in the end haha.
I used to work in a recovery garage, we where primarily contracted by the police & local council, but did a lot of insurance work.
Honestly anything that 'looks' OEM won't bat an eyelid to the technician doing your damage report, the only thing that we really consistently picked up on was obviously not OEM alloy wheels, which normally resulted in either no action or the insurance claimant recieiving a £20-100 bill for a mid term policy adjustment. Chances of someone from your insurance company actually seeing your car is slim to none unless you are trying to appeal something our engineers report said & they send out their own adjuster.
Panel filters, 'subtle' exhausts (not loud, not clean/shiny and not decat), OEM alloys, OEM lip spoilers (common one with the Corsa crowd) and most interior gubbins have a blind eye turned to them, and since it will inevitably be brought up, I never seen anyone plug in an OBD scanner for anything more than a code check, remaps aren't going to be checked under normal circumstance.
With that being said if there is criminal proceedings in relation to the vehicle the police forensics team are inhuman with there attention to detail, they are only really interested in potential accident causers, like ruined tyres/breaks & other mechanical discrepancies, however there findings can and will be used in the engineers report to the insurance co.
Honestly anything that 'looks' OEM won't bat an eyelid to the technician doing your damage report, the only thing that we really consistently picked up on was obviously not OEM alloy wheels, which normally resulted in either no action or the insurance claimant recieiving a £20-100 bill for a mid term policy adjustment. Chances of someone from your insurance company actually seeing your car is slim to none unless you are trying to appeal something our engineers report said & they send out their own adjuster.
Panel filters, 'subtle' exhausts (not loud, not clean/shiny and not decat), OEM alloys, OEM lip spoilers (common one with the Corsa crowd) and most interior gubbins have a blind eye turned to them, and since it will inevitably be brought up, I never seen anyone plug in an OBD scanner for anything more than a code check, remaps aren't going to be checked under normal circumstance.
With that being said if there is criminal proceedings in relation to the vehicle the police forensics team are inhuman with there attention to detail, they are only really interested in potential accident causers, like ruined tyres/breaks & other mechanical discrepancies, however there findings can and will be used in the engineers report to the insurance co.
MrWorkShy said:
So you st-post in other forums then.
I forgot the name of the insurer, but they provided cheaper cover for a "modified" car compared to other insurers if the car was kept stock, it made having a custom downpipe back system on the mr2 worth while in the end haha.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.t-post in other forums then.I forgot the name of the insurer, but they provided cheaper cover for a "modified" car compared to other insurers if the car was kept stock, it made having a custom downpipe back system on the mr2 worth while in the end haha.
MrBrightSi said:
MrWorkShy said:
So you st-post in other forums then.
I forgot the name of the insurer, but they provided cheaper cover for a "modified" car compared to other insurers if the car was kept stock, it made having a custom downpipe back system on the mr2 worth while in the end haha.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.t-post in other forums then.I forgot the name of the insurer, but they provided cheaper cover for a "modified" car compared to other insurers if the car was kept stock, it made having a custom downpipe back system on the mr2 worth while in the end haha.
When I was younger I bought a 106 GTi that I declared as standard when it had alloy wheels and was lowered.
I didn't actually know It was lowered.
With regards to the wheels I naievly thought the insurance company would just pay out based out OEM.
Anyway a few weeks after insuring it I get a letter through stating the national database the insurance companies share state it was modified and unless I could prove otherwise they would be taking £xx from my account on xx date.
I let them collect the money and always declared it from that point.
I have since never owned a modified car.
I didn't actually know It was lowered.
With regards to the wheels I naievly thought the insurance company would just pay out based out OEM.
Anyway a few weeks after insuring it I get a letter through stating the national database the insurance companies share state it was modified and unless I could prove otherwise they would be taking £xx from my account on xx date.
I let them collect the money and always declared it from that point.
I have since never owned a modified car.
when i was 18 i had a 1l mini with a turned metro head, twin webber carbs, twin 2.5" dtm style exhausts, allow wheels and various other tasteless bits of crap.
No mods declared, insured by my 55 year old dad with me as a named driver.
It caught fire, 100% because of the diy airbox i'd made for the carbs.
Insurance assessor spent less than 5 minutes looking at it at the garage it had been pushed to, declared it a write off with a market value of £350
Salvage was retained, It was repaired within a couple of weeks for about £250, and re insured in my name, with the same insurer again without any mods declared nor that it had been written off, or any mention of the claim.
Things are a little different these days, I hate modified cars.
No mods declared, insured by my 55 year old dad with me as a named driver.
It caught fire, 100% because of the diy airbox i'd made for the carbs.
Insurance assessor spent less than 5 minutes looking at it at the garage it had been pushed to, declared it a write off with a market value of £350
Salvage was retained, It was repaired within a couple of weeks for about £250, and re insured in my name, with the same insurer again without any mods declared nor that it had been written off, or any mention of the claim.
Things are a little different these days, I hate modified cars.
The policy I have for my M3 track day toy with Competiton Car Insurance loves modifications, the more the merrier. I believe they won't actually insure standard cars on the policy. Cost is the same as I would pay with a more mainstream insurer, I also get cover for 5 track days thrown in too.
There's a policy for everyone to be nice and legal, you just need to look for it.
There's a policy for everyone to be nice and legal, you just need to look for it.
Pdelamare said:
There's a policy for everyone to be nice and legal*, you just need to look for it.
. *unless your under 25 and are of reasonable means. You really can't blame a lot of 17-20 year old car guys for having... Less than honest insurance policies considering how hard they are dicked by insurance companies. As long as there is a policy in their name on the car then it is 'legal' any dishonesty above that is a civil suit.
Edited by caelite on Sunday 2nd July 22:10
caelite said:
. *unless your under 25 and are of reasonable means.
You really can't blame a lot of 17-20 year old car guys for having... Less than honest insurance policies considering how hard they are dicked by insurance companies. As long as there is a policy in their name on the car then it is 'legal' any dishonesty above that is a civil suit.
Unless of course, you make a false statement to obtain insurance, that is an offence, and includes lying about modifications on a car as well as plenty of other things. You really can't blame a lot of 17-20 year old car guys for having... Less than honest insurance policies considering how hard they are dicked by insurance companies. As long as there is a policy in their name on the car then it is 'legal' any dishonesty above that is a civil suit.
Edited by caelite on Sunday 2nd July 22:10
Loyly said:
Unless of course, you make a false statement to obtain insurance, that is an offence, and includes lying about modifications on a car as well as plenty of other things.
Sorry, my point being that provided the driver is insured in the vehicle then the insurance co are obligated to offer 3rd party payout, thus fulfilling the legal obligation for insurance cover. Meaning that if they are involved in an at fault claim then the 3rd party isn't unduly inconvenienced. Anything past that is no concern of mine. However in most cases it is merely a civil case of the insurance company requesting payment for loss of earnings due there quote now needing revised mid term i.e the quote payed was £450 with oem wheels, however with aftermarket wheels the quote would be £470, therefore the insurer is within their right to request difference along with a mid term adjustment fee. Very few insurers will try to seek full costs of a claim back as it is very difficult for them to do so over a minor discrepancy (contrary to popular PH belief, the insurance ombudsman does offer some protection over minor negligences), but even then this costs are sought through civil courts through the 1st party.
Insurance is a game of risk v reward, this is how insurance companies operate, when people use falsehoods to get a quote they are simply playing the same game, comparing the risk of needing to claim and getting caught vs the potential reward of minor gain to personal finance.
g3org3y said:
MrBrightSi said:
MrWorkShy said:
So you st-post in other forums then.
I forgot the name of the insurer, but they provided cheaper cover for a "modified" car compared to other insurers if the car was kept stock, it made having a custom downpipe back system on the mr2 worth while in the end haha.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.t-post in other forums then.I forgot the name of the insurer, but they provided cheaper cover for a "modified" car compared to other insurers if the car was kept stock, it made having a custom downpipe back system on the mr2 worth while in the end haha.
One of these 10hp right there, insurance wont mind.
caelite said:
Sorry, my point being that provided the driver is insured in the vehicle then the insurance co are obligated to offer 3rd party payout, thus fulfilling the legal obligation for insurance cover. Meaning that if they are involved in an at fault claim then the 3rd party isn't unduly inconvenienced.
Anything past that is no concern of mine. However in most cases it is merely a civil case of the insurance company requesting payment for loss of earnings due there quote now needing revised mid term i.e the quote payed was £450 with oem wheels, however with aftermarket wheels the quote would be £470, therefore the insurer is within their right to request difference along with a mid term adjustment fee. Very few insurers will try to seek full costs of a claim back as it is very difficult for them to do so over a minor discrepancy (contrary to popular PH belief, the insurance ombudsman does offer some protection over minor negligences), but even then this costs are sought through civil courts through the 1st party.
Insurance is a game of risk v reward, this is how insurance companies operate, when people use falsehoods to get a quote they are simply playing the same game, comparing the risk of needing to claim and getting caught vs the potential reward of minor gain to personal finance.
The law changed a couple of years ago, if your Insurer deems that you purposely missled them then they can void the policy.Anything past that is no concern of mine. However in most cases it is merely a civil case of the insurance company requesting payment for loss of earnings due there quote now needing revised mid term i.e the quote payed was £450 with oem wheels, however with aftermarket wheels the quote would be £470, therefore the insurer is within their right to request difference along with a mid term adjustment fee. Very few insurers will try to seek full costs of a claim back as it is very difficult for them to do so over a minor discrepancy (contrary to popular PH belief, the insurance ombudsman does offer some protection over minor negligences), but even then this costs are sought through civil courts through the 1st party.
Insurance is a game of risk v reward, this is how insurance companies operate, when people use falsehoods to get a quote they are simply playing the same game, comparing the risk of needing to claim and getting caught vs the potential reward of minor gain to personal finance.
Now they are backed by the law, Insurers are far more likely to void a policy for purposely mss leading them.
In addition, if the Insurer would not have covered the vehicle with the modifications had you declared them, then they can void the policy. This is irrespective of whether the non disclosure was intentional or not.
dacouch said:
The law changed a couple of years ago, if your Insurer deems that you purposely missled them then they can void the policy.
Now they are backed by the law, Insurers are far more likely to void a policy for purposely mss leading them.
In addition, if the Insurer would not have covered the vehicle with the modifications had you declared them, then they can void the policy. This is irrespective of whether the non disclosure was intentional or not.
Your in addition point has always been the case, however due to the difficulty in wriggling out of payments historically I know insurances Co's tended to just demand a rather large 'revised' quote and called it a day. Now they are backed by the law, Insurers are far more likely to void a policy for purposely mss leading them.
In addition, if the Insurer would not have covered the vehicle with the modifications had you declared them, then they can void the policy. This is irrespective of whether the non disclosure was intentional or not.
However I hadn't heard of a change in law regarding the quotation guidelines. When did they do that out of curiosity? It was ~11' to 13' I was working in a lockup and I hadn't heard, all the adjustors we dealt with treated it as a fairly minor discrepancy unless the modification was deemed to be unsafe and a potential accident causer within our techy report.
My first car was a 1.6L mk1 Cavalier automatic on a W plate.
This was 30 years ago and I was 18.
Never having driven other cars, apart from my driving instructor's Toyota, I just assumed that this was how powerful a 1.6 was supposed to be.
One year in to my ownership of the vehicle I was waiting at some traffic lights when the chap in car behind jumped out and came and tapped on my window. He said he was the previous owner and was pleased to see that car nicely clean and looked after. He then asked how I was getting on with the 2.0L engine - no it's a 1.6 I replied. Not so he said, I changed the engine two years ago.
Got it checked by my dad's usual garage and they confirmed the bigger engine.
With trepidation in my heart and wallet I phoned the insurance company; who just said - thanks for telling us, no extra cost, just remind us next year and get it changed on the logbook.
I'm sure things are different these days...
This was 30 years ago and I was 18.
Never having driven other cars, apart from my driving instructor's Toyota, I just assumed that this was how powerful a 1.6 was supposed to be.
One year in to my ownership of the vehicle I was waiting at some traffic lights when the chap in car behind jumped out and came and tapped on my window. He said he was the previous owner and was pleased to see that car nicely clean and looked after. He then asked how I was getting on with the 2.0L engine - no it's a 1.6 I replied. Not so he said, I changed the engine two years ago.
Got it checked by my dad's usual garage and they confirmed the bigger engine.
With trepidation in my heart and wallet I phoned the insurance company; who just said - thanks for telling us, no extra cost, just remind us next year and get it changed on the logbook.
I'm sure things are different these days...
Edited by jdw100 on Monday 3rd July 05:14
caelite said:
Your in addition point has always been the case, however due to the difficulty in wriggling out of payments historically I know insurances Co's tended to just demand a rather large 'revised' quote and called it a day.
However I hadn't heard of a change in law regarding the quotation guidelines. When did they do that out of curiosity? It was ~11' to 13' I was working in a lockup and I hadn't heard, all the adjustors we dealt with treated it as a fairly minor discrepancy unless the modification was deemed to be unsafe and a potential accident causer within our techy report.
The Consumer Insurance Act came into force 2013.However I hadn't heard of a change in law regarding the quotation guidelines. When did they do that out of curiosity? It was ~11' to 13' I was working in a lockup and I hadn't heard, all the adjustors we dealt with treated it as a fairly minor discrepancy unless the modification was deemed to be unsafe and a potential accident causer within our techy report.
There are still Insurers who regard it to much hassle to chase a customer, however there are Insurers who regard it as a good business decision to void the policy, avoid the own damage claim, (possibly) retain all of the premium, pursue their customer for the money and avoid having to pay any future claims for what they regard as a customer they do not want.
There are many Insurers who as the law has changed (It's actually heavily weighted in favour of the consumer) who regard it that now it is a law that they have to accept more claims for innocent non disclosure, that in return they will enforce intentional non disclosure and void all policies they discover.
People forget that data is how an Insurers raison d'être and social media enables them to find out a lot about their customers. They won't check all of their customers, but on a claim that ticks certain boxes and especially theft / fire claims, some Insurers will check your social media where they will often find their customers boasting about their modifications.
Also do not forget that if you obtain a quotation with your modifications online and then decide you will take out a cheaper quote withour declaring the modifications. A large number of Insurers will retain that information and either ask you about it after you take out the cover eg Admiral or ask you about it when you have made a claim. It can be difficult explaining such a non disclosure to an Insurer without the Insurer concluding you intentionally miss led them and thus your policy will be voided etc
When I was about 20, I had a Saxo VTR with different alloy wheels, exhaust, lowered etc which was insured as standard. I wrote it off and the insurance company never said a thing and paid out in full.
A couple of years ago I had a EP3 Civic with the only modification being a K&N induction kit, otherwise completely standard and I didn't think to declare it (should have done). When I wrote that car off it was picked up and I was asked why I hadn't declared this modification, I pleaded ignorance and said I didn't have a clue what an induction kit was and luckily the insurance company still paid out in full.
I now make sure every little thing is declared!
A couple of years ago I had a EP3 Civic with the only modification being a K&N induction kit, otherwise completely standard and I didn't think to declare it (should have done). When I wrote that car off it was picked up and I was asked why I hadn't declared this modification, I pleaded ignorance and said I didn't have a clue what an induction kit was and luckily the insurance company still paid out in full.
I now make sure every little thing is declared!
Change enough stuff on your car and the numbers of insurers who will cover you can be counted on one hand.
They seem to care about stuff that makes it go faster and therefore more likely to be crashed, and also shiny things that would make it more likely to be be stolen or pilfered from and not a lot beside that.
If it alters their risk profile, they're interested, If not, they're not.
There's loads of undeclared mods on mine - mainly because they were done years ago and i've forgotten to tell them they were done - mainly because insurers haven't cared that they were done.
They seem to care about stuff that makes it go faster and therefore more likely to be crashed, and also shiny things that would make it more likely to be be stolen or pilfered from and not a lot beside that.
If it alters their risk profile, they're interested, If not, they're not.
There's loads of undeclared mods on mine - mainly because they were done years ago and i've forgotten to tell them they were done - mainly because insurers haven't cared that they were done.
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