Licensed Premises Application - any experts?

[JQ]

We live adjacent to a public park. Over the last 6 months an area of this park has been converted to a football ground for a local team - clubhouse, pitch, floodlights, parking, seating for 150 etc. We don't have any major objection to this as both my kids play football, but clearly there'll be disruption to our lives, however we're happy the local benefit outways any impact on us.

However, we've just been informed the club have applied for an alcohol licence -

9am to 11pm Monday to Thursday
9am to 12am Friday to Sunday

We have received no written notice of this application from the local authority and only found out from a neighbour yesterday. There is a meeting at the council offices tomorrow (Tuesday 1st Aug) to discuss objections. Time is against us.

A spanner in the works is that whilst our property is 10.89 metres from the football club, we live in a different County. The boundary fence of the park forms the boundary between the 2 counties.

We clearly don't want a pub being operated 10 metres from our back garden in what was a lovely public park with all the potential disruption it could cause. Does anybody have any advice on how best to proceed?

[mgv8]

If you have not already, get together with the local comnity group, or if there is not one start one quick. As a singel large voice you will have more power. My local group have forsed TFL to make changes and help change the layout of local roads. You will need to move fast as mambership meeting and minits need to be soerted before you will be looked at.

[JQ]

Cheers.

I plan to attend the meeting tomorrow and if I can get any decision postponed until all my neighbours have been informed that's exactly what I plan to do.

[The Surveyor]

JQ said:

.......We clearly don't want a pub being operated 10 metres from our back garden in what was a lovely public park with all the potential disruption it could cause. Does anybody have any advice on how best to proceed?

What is your real objection? is it noise, loss of privacy, traffic, opening hours, or just people having more fun than you in your back yard?

Scatter-gun objections will be seen as such by the licensing committee so you need to focus on what your real objection is. As above, try and see if other neighbours have the same concerns as a collective approach will be taken more seriously, and also speak with the Council's licensing committee and ask them what the correct formal approach for objections is.

Reality check! I assume this clubhouse received planning approval before it was built, did you not object at the time? If this is a new clubhouse and it was granted planning consent as a clubhouse including a bar recently, you're a bit late to the 'objection' party! The reality being if the council have already granted approval for a clubhouse, your lobbying to the licensing committee will only at best have a small consideration to the way it's operated, you're not going to stop it being operated as a clubhouse.

[21TonyK]

I'm no expert but have been on both ends of objections to licensing applications a few times. As already said the only thing you are likely to get is a vague condition imposed on the license. Things like having signage asking people to leave quietly, be considerate of local residents etc. My only concern would be outdoor seating which may be far closer to your boundary, open windows and doors facing your boundary etc

On one site I think we had a condition imposed whereby noise emanating from the building after a certain time (10pm from memory) must not be above background levels at the boundary with neighbouring properties.

[megaphone]

Is it going to be a members club or open to the public, a full on licence? My local cricket club has a bar licence but it is only open to members and guests, It never causes any issues. They do have the odd party for a member, disco etc but only occasionally.

[JQ]

megaphone said:

Is it going to be a members club or open to the public, a full on licence? My local cricket club has a bar licence but it is only open to members and guests, It never causes any issues. They do have the odd party for a member, disco etc but only occasionally.

In all honesty I don't know whether it will be open to the public or not but with 28 football teams currently at the club and their aim of achieving 50 teams when they move to this new facility, even if it is member's only, there will be a lot of members.

[SantaBarbara]

Ask for th hours to be reduced

Ask for the noise level to be monitored and controlled

Ask for the Sunday opening hours to be restricted

How will they control the age of those using the bar?

Will they have CCTV to monitor behaviour?

[SantaBarbara]

Ask for more time or a postponement for you to be able to better consider the application,
And tell them there is a problem because of the county boundary

[Alucidnation]

Move.

[SantaBarbara]

How far away is the car park as well, as that may generate noise?

[The Surveyor]

JQ said:

In all honesty I don't know whether it will be open to the public or not but with 28 football teams currently at the club and their aim of achieving 50 teams when they move to this new facility, even if it is member's only, there will be a lot of members.

As before, what is the actual nature of your objection to the License Application? You need to be very specific as to why you want your views to be considered above those of the users of this facility otherwise your views will be swept aside as a simple NIMBY objector. The use of the park as a football facility with a Clubhouse is already established, that can't be changed so focus on what you do want restricted / protected, and why.

[SantaBarbara]

The licensing committee has a duty to consider the welfare of children and young people.

What qualifications will the licences be expected to have

Is the licence being applied for by a named individual or a committee?

[JQ]

The Surveyor said:

JQ said:

In all honesty I don't know whether it will be open to the public or not but with 28 football teams currently at the club and their aim of achieving 50 teams when they move to this new facility, even if it is member's only, there will be a lot of members.

As before, what is the actual nature of your objection to the License Application? You need to be very specific as to why you want your views to be considered above those of the users of this facility otherwise your views will be swept aside as a simple NIMBY objector. The use of the park as a football facility with a Clubhouse is already established, that can't be changed so focus on what you do want restricted / protected, and why.

It's all irrelevant now anyway, we missed the deadline for making an objection, so our concerns are to be ignored and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

Our objections related to noise and anti-social behaviour. To me there's a world of difference between kids playing football on a Saturday and Sunday afternoon to people boozing until midnight 3 nights a week and until 11pm every other night.

[KungFuPanda]

Ah well. They should have posted physical notices of the licence application within a certain distance of the premises. They probably did but you didn't notice.

[JQ]

KungFuPanda said:

Ah well. They should have posted physical notices of the licence application within a certain distance of the premises. They probably did but you didn't notice.

They did. A single piece of A4 paper in a large park, not the easiest think to spot - probably walked past it hundreds of times.

One of my neighbours did manage to get an objection raised in the applicable time, so I'm now trying to find out who that is so I can offer them some support tomorrow.

[The Surveyor]

JQ said:

It's all irrelevant now anyway, we missed the deadline for making an objection, so our concerns are to be ignored and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

Our objections related to noise and anti-social behaviour. To me there's a world of difference between kids playing football on a Saturday and Sunday afternoon to people boozing until midnight 3 nights a week and until 11pm every other night.

Just because you failed to get your objection in on time all is not lost, if there are any occurrences of noise or anti-social behaviour as a result of them breeching the terms of their License, you can still complain. The license will be reviewed if there are any valid grounds for concern.

As before though, am I right to assume that they have gone through a full formal planning process to allow them to build a clubhouse at the bottom of your garden, a clubhouse which would have included clubhouse facilities. Why are you now so concerned they have applied for a license to operate their new clubhouse as a clubhouse?

[JQ]

The Surveyor said:

Just because you failed to get your objection in on time all is not lost, if there are any occurrences of noise or anti-social behaviour as a result of them breeching the terms of their License, you can still complain. The license will be reviewed if there are any valid grounds for concern.

As before though, am I right to assume that they have gone through a full formal planning process to allow them to build a clubhouse at the bottom of your garden, a clubhouse which would have included clubhouse facilities. Why are you now so concerned they have applied for a license to operate their new clubhouse as a clubhouse?

The planning consent was granted in 2002, we moved into our house in 2005. They started developing the site 3 months ago.

As I said we don't object to the football pitch and associated facilities, but the assumption that a clubhouse requires an alcohol licence I find odd. This is a children's football club by the way. I'm a manager of a football team at another local club which is also situated on land leased from the council, we don't have a licence. The local tennis club that I'm a member of approximately 500 metres from this development also runs perfectly well without an alcohol licence. We have another large park in our village which has a large clubhouse, used by the local athletics club and cricket teams, again, works perfectly well without licence.

I don't want my children to play in our back garden whilst being forced to listen to pub talk. I don't think that's completely unreasonable.

[The Surveyor]

JQ said:

The planning consent was granted in 2002, we moved into our house in 2005. They started developing the site 3 months ago.

As I said we don't object to the football pitch and associated facilities, but the assumption that a clubhouse requires an alcohol licence I find odd. This is a children's football club by the way. I'm a manager of a football team at another local club which is also situated on land leased from the council, we don't have a licence. The local tennis club that I'm a member of approximately 500 metres from this development also runs perfectly well without an alcohol licence. We have another large park in our village which has a large clubhouse, used by the local athletics club and cricket teams, again, works perfectly well without licence.

I don't want my children to play in our back garden whilst being forced to listen to pub talk. I don't think that's completely unreasonable.

Your dates don't add up. A planning consent only has a 3 year shelf-life so if they are only just starting the development, they would have needed to re-apply for their consent within the last 3 years (after you moved in). The application and it's approval would have included for A4 use, which covers the sale of drinks. If that's the case then it shouldn't have been surprised that they were going to sell drinks.

I can sympathise with the nature of the change to the bottom of your garden, but it looks like they've spotted a gap in the market for a clubhouse with a license and I do hope it isn't too disruptive.

[JQ]

The Surveyor said:

JQ said:

The planning consent was granted in 2002, we moved into our house in 2005. They started developing the site 3 months ago.

As I said we don't object to the football pitch and associated facilities, but the assumption that a clubhouse requires an alcohol licence I find odd. This is a children's football club by the way. I'm a manager of a football team at another local club which is also situated on land leased from the council, we don't have a licence. The local tennis club that I'm a member of approximately 500 metres from this development also runs perfectly well without an alcohol licence. We have another large park in our village which has a large clubhouse, used by the local athletics club and cricket teams, again, works perfectly well without licence.

I don't want my children to play in our back garden whilst being forced to listen to pub talk. I don't think that's completely unreasonable.

Your dates don't add up. A planning consent only has a 3 year shelf-life so if they are only just starting the development, they would have needed to re-apply for their consent within the last 3 years (after you moved in). The application and it's approval would have included for A4 use, which covers the sale of drinks. If that's the case then it shouldn't have been surprised that they were going to sell drinks.

I can sympathise with the nature of the change to the bottom of your garden, but it looks like they've spotted a gap in the market for a clubhouse with a license and I do hope it isn't too disruptive.

They altered the entrance to the park in line with the 2002 application which appears to have kept the consent live. The original consent was for changing facilities and football pitch along with parking and seating for supporters. There was no consent for a bar, clubhouse or any such facility. An amendment to the original consent was then applied for in 2016 which significantly changed the nature of the development to a fking massive clubhouse with huge bi-fold doors onto a large patio area. It would appear that because we don't physically adjoin the site in question (10.8 metres away) we were not notified of this amendment. No doubt there was an A4 sheet of paper attached to a tree somewhere in the park, but again we failed to spot it, so the amendment was granted.

I'm going to speak to my neighbours who do adjoin the site to see if they did receive notice of the amendment, which they should have. The planning consultant I've spoken to today suggest that such a significant change to the original consent should not have been done by way of an amendment but rather by a new application. So, if I can't object to the license application I'll start being a pain around the planning consent if it transpires they have not followed due process.