Council Parking - 10 minute grace period
Discussion
Just a reality check on the grounds of my appeal, if you please.
Circumstances: PCN issued for overstay, council car park designated parking bay in close proximity to a shopping centre.
Parking ticket printed at e.g. 10:00 with 1 hour (free) duration so parking period expires after 11:00. PCN issued at 11:10 as I'm stood next to my car ready to leave. I have mitigation already - fire alarm activation in centre delayed my return - but I'm mindful that this appeal will be down to goodwill only. I'll likely lose the 50% discount available if the council reject the initial appeal and I push on to adjudication, so I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on the following:
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions 2015 amendment - giving a 10 minute grace period - appears to invalidate the PCN. They say "No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes".
Surely the council's parking ticket and PCN can only evidence an overstay of 10minutes +/- 59 seconds? They cannot use it prove exceeding 10 minutes, so the appeal should be straightforward? I also have video evidence showing acquisition of the parking ticket was actually later than the ticket machine's timestamp, which drops the genuine overstay down to around 8 minutes only, but I'd rather take the simple route if I can.
Circumstances: PCN issued for overstay, council car park designated parking bay in close proximity to a shopping centre.
Parking ticket printed at e.g. 10:00 with 1 hour (free) duration so parking period expires after 11:00. PCN issued at 11:10 as I'm stood next to my car ready to leave. I have mitigation already - fire alarm activation in centre delayed my return - but I'm mindful that this appeal will be down to goodwill only. I'll likely lose the 50% discount available if the council reject the initial appeal and I push on to adjudication, so I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on the following:
The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions 2015 amendment - giving a 10 minute grace period - appears to invalidate the PCN. They say "No penalty charge is payable for the contravention where the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period for a period not exceeding 10 minutes".
Surely the council's parking ticket and PCN can only evidence an overstay of 10minutes +/- 59 seconds? They cannot use it prove exceeding 10 minutes, so the appeal should be straightforward? I also have video evidence showing acquisition of the parking ticket was actually later than the ticket machine's timestamp, which drops the genuine overstay down to around 8 minutes only, but I'd rather take the simple route if I can.
Edited by simion_levi on Friday 6th October 22:55
PurpleMoonlight said:
Did the fire alarm obstruct your route to return to the car park?
You have exceeded 10 minutes as soon as you hit 10.01.
If a ticket is printed at 10:00:59 and PCN at 11:10:00 then it would be clear that the 'exceed 10 minutes' test had not been met. With whole minutes, all that can be concluded is that the overstay is somewhere in the range 9.01 to 10.59, with a slightly higher probability that it was not exceeding 10 minutes. I would say (and hope that the adjudicator would agree!) that the council would have to wait until 11:11 before issuing a PCN to comply with the regulations.You have exceeded 10 minutes as soon as you hit 10.01.
Yes, the alarm caused me to exit the opposite side of the centre and consequentially delayed my return. I am appealing on these grounds too, but would like a rock solid procedural issue to back up the mitigation.
A lot of the handheld computers used will not allow a PCN to be printed until the allotted time has passed, so while it could look like it was only 10 minutes, it could have been seconds over, the clocks on the handhelds don't break the time on the display into minutes and seconds. So if the 'observation' time was started at 10.01.05 the computer would allow issue at 10.11.06 (i know the council car park ones here do that, all ours on street are set at 5 full minutes... 300 seconds, hence if we have to do a 10 minute observation that we do wait until the clock has shown 11 minutes, but with the 5 mins we issue as soon as it allows)
Thanks - official 'observation' time appears to be nothing (or between nothing and 59 seconds anyway, given my line of reasoning!) since the observation start time, end time and PCN issue time all say the same thing - i.e. 11:10!
It's actually the parking ticket 'expiry' time that is 11:00 and PCN issue time of 11:10 that creates this potential variation of 9min1 to 10min59. I would suggest that their parking ticket machine is ~two minutes fast.
I also now see that they've put contravention code 83 down instead of 82 - which appears to be 'not displayed' rather than the expected 'overstay'? Presumably just a mistake, but if not I have video that should adequately defeat that claim!
It's actually the parking ticket 'expiry' time that is 11:00 and PCN issue time of 11:10 that creates this potential variation of 9min1 to 10min59. I would suggest that their parking ticket machine is ~two minutes fast.
I also now see that they've put contravention code 83 down instead of 82 - which appears to be 'not displayed' rather than the expected 'overstay'? Presumably just a mistake, but if not I have video that should adequately defeat that claim!
simion_levi said:
If a ticket is printed at 10:00:59 and PCN at 11:10:00 then it would be clear that the 'exceed 10 minutes' test had not been met. With whole minutes, all that can be concluded is that the overstay is somewhere in the range 9.01 to 10.59, with a slightly higher probability that it was not exceeding 10 minutes. I would say (and hope that the adjudicator would agree!) that the council would have to wait until 11:11 before issuing a PCN to comply with the regulations.
Yes, the alarm caused me to exit the opposite side of the centre and consequentially delayed my return. I am appealing on these grounds too, but would like a rock solid procedural issue to back up the mitigation.
Well if he put the ticket on at 11:10 then your car was in the car park at 11:10. Unless you left in a time warp or you were in motion over the line between the car park and NOT the car park then you must have been there more than 10 minutes past 11:00. Yes, the alarm caused me to exit the opposite side of the centre and consequentially delayed my return. I am appealing on these grounds too, but would like a rock solid procedural issue to back up the mitigation.
The car park ticket machine not being exactly the right time is a non-starter. To use that line you would have to show that the machine was running fast and didn't give you 60 minutes parking between getting the ticket and the violation.
You simply need to accept that you paid for 60 minutes parking and were there longer than 60 minutes...well, 70 minutes in your case.
To make the clearest cut case follow this example through:
Ticket expires 1 hour after 'purchase' (is actually free).
Ticket purchased at 10:00:59 (still says 10:00 on it)
So expires 11:00:59 (says 11:00 on it)
PCN issued at 11:10:00 (says 11:10 on it)
Time of overstay is 11:10:00 - 11:00:59 = 9 minutes and 1 second. This period does not exceed 10 minutes. Neither does any other period up to and including 10 minutes exactly! If you choose to only print whole minutes on your tickets and PCN, you need to wait until there is an apparent 11 minute gap to be sure that it is actually exceeding 10 minutes. (That '11 minute' gap could turn out to be as short as 10minutes 1second).
I have video evidence that backs up actual overstay being below 9 minutes, so yes - I will seek to prove that point to an adjudicator if it comes to it. Here's hoping it won't come to that!
Ticket expires 1 hour after 'purchase' (is actually free).
Ticket purchased at 10:00:59 (still says 10:00 on it)
So expires 11:00:59 (says 11:00 on it)
PCN issued at 11:10:00 (says 11:10 on it)
Time of overstay is 11:10:00 - 11:00:59 = 9 minutes and 1 second. This period does not exceed 10 minutes. Neither does any other period up to and including 10 minutes exactly! If you choose to only print whole minutes on your tickets and PCN, you need to wait until there is an apparent 11 minute gap to be sure that it is actually exceeding 10 minutes. (That '11 minute' gap could turn out to be as short as 10minutes 1second).
I have video evidence that backs up actual overstay being below 9 minutes, so yes - I will seek to prove that point to an adjudicator if it comes to it. Here's hoping it won't come to that!
As I have said, a lot of the handheld computers will not allow issue until 600 seconds have passed, I deal with on-street parking and our time is 5 minutes, I have seen times when it looks like my ticket time started on in the last seconds of the minute, time started at 11.05 but the machine wouldn't allow issuing until 11.11, other times it looks like its only been 5 minutes.
I was under the impression that the 10minutes grace time was an uncharged period intended to allow people to exit the car park via the paved roadway, after vacating the space on time. The obvious logic being that the space itself is only occupied for the duration of the ticket purchased.
Obviously most parking spaces don't require 10mins to exit, unless it's a busy time of year like xmas etc.
But, it's naive to rely on the grace period as an integral part of the parking space time.
Obviously most parking spaces don't require 10mins to exit, unless it's a busy time of year like xmas etc.
But, it's naive to rely on the grace period as an integral part of the parking space time.
speedchick said:
As I have said, a lot of the handheld computers will not allow issue until 600 seconds have passed, I deal with on-street parking and our time is 5 minutes, I have seen times when it looks like my ticket time started on in the last seconds of the minute, time started at 11.05 but the machine wouldn't allow issuing until 11.11, other times it looks like its only been 5 minutes.
Thanks, so you are saying that the handheld computers are (normally) synchronised with the pay and display ticket machines? simion_levi said:
speedchick said:
As I have said, a lot of the handheld computers will not allow issue until 600 seconds have passed, I deal with on-street parking and our time is 5 minutes, I have seen times when it looks like my ticket time started on in the last seconds of the minute, time started at 11.05 but the machine wouldn't allow issuing until 11.11, other times it looks like its only been 5 minutes.
Thanks, so you are saying that the handheld computers are (normally) synchronised with the pay and display ticket machines? Pay and Display should be banned. It's old technology deliberately left in place to generate revenue. There is no reason not to use pay on exit machines that calculate the fee depending on how long you've been there.
Forget Brexit, the Party that sorts out legalised parking robbery will win the next election by a mile.
Forget Brexit, the Party that sorts out legalised parking robbery will win the next election by a mile.
If they have recorded the wrong code wouldn't it make it easier to fight, you still have your ticket as proof. Although, failure to display would possibly require a photo so they would realise their mistake pretty quickly. You could also argue, if they can't get the codes right chances are they cock up the times.
tony wright said:
If they have recorded the wrong code wouldn't it make it easier to fight, you still have your ticket as proof. Although, failure to display would possibly require a photo so they would realise their mistake pretty quickly. You could also argue, if they can't get the codes right chances are they cock up the times.
Yes, I have challenged the PCN now. PCN says not displayed, so I've sent them a copy of the ticket and a photo of their CEO looking at the ticket in my window. I look forward to their response!Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff