Use of/reasonable force
Discussion
I know we've had a few threads on here previously about Police use of force and what is/isn't reasonable. Although it's from the US, this video is quite interesting as it shows just how difficult it can be to control someone who is resisting.
The resistance here is pretty low level, not really that far up from"non compliance". The "subject" isn't fighting and it's a nice safe, controlled environment, rather than out on the street in the rain and the dark at 2am.
The first subject is a pretty big chap, but the second subject is a fairly small female and you can see what a struggle it is even to control her. I've often thought about doing something like this for PHers, but as I'm currently recovering from a (non work related) motorcycle accident which resulted in a shattered femur, fractured pelvis and wrist, post-operative infection, bilateral basal pulmonary embolisms and hospital acquired pneumonia, we will have to wait a little while!
https://www.facebook.com/davidfox46/videos/1992622...
Apologies for the Facebook link, I'll try and find a YouTube one.
The resistance here is pretty low level, not really that far up from"non compliance". The "subject" isn't fighting and it's a nice safe, controlled environment, rather than out on the street in the rain and the dark at 2am.
The first subject is a pretty big chap, but the second subject is a fairly small female and you can see what a struggle it is even to control her. I've often thought about doing something like this for PHers, but as I'm currently recovering from a (non work related) motorcycle accident which resulted in a shattered femur, fractured pelvis and wrist, post-operative infection, bilateral basal pulmonary embolisms and hospital acquired pneumonia, we will have to wait a little while!
https://www.facebook.com/davidfox46/videos/1992622...
Apologies for the Facebook link, I'll try and find a YouTube one.
And those examples are displayed in controlled environments, where the participants don't want to harm the officers attempting to control them and aren't out of their tits on drugs.
With an average sized male adult two on one isn't enough to safely control a resisting suspect without resorting to PPE. Even once they are on the ground it is common for the detainee to lock their arms and resist hand cuffing, often resulting in the repeated strikes to the arm seen in some of the linked vids.
With an average sized male adult two on one isn't enough to safely control a resisting suspect without resorting to PPE. Even once they are on the ground it is common for the detainee to lock their arms and resist hand cuffing, often resulting in the repeated strikes to the arm seen in some of the linked vids.
Quite interesting to watch. I've often wondered how exactly some of the officers I see about would arrest a big chap who didn't want to be arrested, clearly the answer is they couldn't without about six mates. It would be both fun and interesting to get the chance to participate in something like this and see how we fared.
You could justify quite a lot of force if that was real to be fair.
Consider your impact factors, where are you, who else is around, are they going to assist your or the subject? Consider the subject, given that chaps size if you were concerned about what he may do, and you hold an honestly held belief he was going to hurt you, then it's up to you to use reasonable force to effect arrest or protect yourself and others etc etc
Personal experience says that if it's two of you on somebody that size then it's going to be hard work and require quite a bit of 'force' to effectively restrain them. Even if that boils down to a cuff take down or knee strikes to get them to the ground or use of PPE baton strikes or CS.
Although they aren't 'doing' anything you need to deal with them, neutralise the threat or potential threat and effect arrest. On the old scale he is actively resisting.
It's knowing when to stop and preventing red mist that I feel is most important
However that being a US video, I think in many states they are allowed to use lethal force to prevent a felony... Escaping lawful custody being a felony offence... So I imagine they'd just shoot him.
Consider your impact factors, where are you, who else is around, are they going to assist your or the subject? Consider the subject, given that chaps size if you were concerned about what he may do, and you hold an honestly held belief he was going to hurt you, then it's up to you to use reasonable force to effect arrest or protect yourself and others etc etc
Personal experience says that if it's two of you on somebody that size then it's going to be hard work and require quite a bit of 'force' to effectively restrain them. Even if that boils down to a cuff take down or knee strikes to get them to the ground or use of PPE baton strikes or CS.
Although they aren't 'doing' anything you need to deal with them, neutralise the threat or potential threat and effect arrest. On the old scale he is actively resisting.
It's knowing when to stop and preventing red mist that I feel is most important
However that being a US video, I think in many states they are allowed to use lethal force to prevent a felony... Escaping lawful custody being a felony offence... So I imagine they'd just shoot him.
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