Dual control liability?

[untakenname]

A learner pulled out in front of me today on a roundabout, I was already established on the roundabout and didn't think anything of it as they started to move as surely the driver instruction would simply dip the clutch? They pulled out anyway and I had to emergency brake but I wondered if there was a collision who would be to blame?
I was thinking the instructor as the learner driver is that, a learner and doesn't yet hold a licence but then again if a learner didn't something that was inexplicable and unforeseen then the instructor wouldn't be to blame?

[akirk]

I think there can be liability for the full licence holder if a learner makes a mistake, even in a non dual-control car...

[vonhosen]

untakenname said:

A learner pulled out in front of me today on a roundabout, I was already established on the roundabout and didn't think anything of it as they started to move as surely the driver instruction would simply dip the clutch? They pulled out anyway and I had to emergency brake but I wondered if there was a collision who would be to blame?
I was thinking the instructor as the learner driver is that, a learner and doesn't yet hold a licence but then again if a learner didn't something that was inexplicable and unforeseen then the instructor wouldn't be to blame?

How do you know they had dual controls?

[Pica-Pica]

vonhosen said:

untakenname said:

A learner pulled out in front of me today on a roundabout, I was already established on the roundabout and didn't think anything of it as they started to move as surely the driver instruction would simply dip the clutch? They pulled out anyway and I had to emergency brake but I wondered if there was a collision who would be to blame?
I was thinking the instructor as the learner driver is that, a learner and doesn't yet hold a licence but then again if a learner didn't something that was inexplicable and unforeseen then the instructor wouldn't be to blame?

How do you know they had dual controls?

How do you know the driver was the learner?

[untakenname]

Pica-Pica said:

How do you know the driver was the learner?

Car was two up with a young female driving

vonhosen said:

How do you know they had dual controls?

It's a large driving school, I'm pretty sure all the cars are dual control.



Gonna head outside and retrieve the dashcam, I'm sure I heard the beeping noise of an event on the dashcam so should hopefully be easy to find.

[vonhosen]

Financially liable is the learner's insurer.
Learner drivers are criminally liable for their own driving, there is but one driving standard expected in law from learner to expert.

[untakenname]

Yep, I'd assumed the learners insurance would be liable but I just wondered with the grey area when two people have input on the controls.

Found the footage and uploading to youtube now, tbh watching it back it seems a bit different from what I remember.

[NGee]

vonhosen said:

Financially liable is the learner's insurer.
Learner drivers are criminally liable for their own driving, there is but one driving standard expected in law from learner to expert.

Yes, this ^^. Nothing to do with the instructor, although don't forget the instructor (or accompanying passenger) must be 'road legal', i.e. not drunk, not on the phone etc.

[Pumpkinz]

Several points I would highlight as an ADI. Firstly, as far as possible we tend to allow the learners to make mistakes - so I would weigh up whether I felt there was a real risk of impact before stopping the student. We also have to weigh up, especially at roundabouts, the risk of a rear-ender if we stop the student.

We wouldn't dip the clutch to control the speed. Too much engine risk if they stay on the gas. Brakes only for the most part.

May have been on test - examiners are even less likely to stop the car entering the roundabout. They allow every possible opportunity for the learner to correct themselves, which does mean some fairly close situations develop from time to time.

[anonymous-user]

The supervising driver may face criminal liability in some circumstances, and could be held liable for negligence if it could be shown that intervention by the supervisor could have prevented an accident caused by the learner.

[anonymous-user]

NGee said:

... Nothing to do with the instructor ...

On the contrary, the supervising driver is treated as being in control of the vehicle.

[untakenname]

That's what I wondered, I thought it may rest with the instructor.

Video here, had to mute the sound as youtube flagged it for copyright violation as I had the radio on at the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuahnBm_Hg0

[hast2]

They had started to enter the roundabout as you hit the gas from about 30m back from the roundabout. You should have been giving way to traffic (at the roundabout give way line) already on the roundabout, not just those coming from the right.

[anonymous-user]

hast2 said:

You should have been giving way to traffic (at the roundabout give way line) already on the roundabout, not just those coming from the right.

[Steve H]

untakenname said:

Found the footage and uploading to youtube now, tbh watching it back it seems a bit different from what I remember.

Yep, if you'd had an impact it would have been worth losing the footage rather than using it.

Looks like you and the learner car both entered the roundabout at the same time which should have been fine but you had given it a good squirt to get on before the car that was coming round from your right so you had a little more pace .

[hast2]

280E said:

hast2 said:

You should have been giving way to traffic (at the roundabout give way line) already on the roundabout, not just those coming from the right.

What bit don't you understand?

Highway Code 185

When reaching the roundabout you should

•give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
•check whether road markings allow you to enter the roundabout without giving way. If so, proceed, but still look to the right before joining
•watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout ;be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all
•look forward before moving off to make sure traffic in front has moved off.

Edited by hast2 on Friday 17th November 08:07

[Alucidnation]

It appears to me that the DCW decided to nail it across the roundabout and cut off the car already on it.

If he had approached and entered at his speed beforehand, none of this would be an issue.

[Riley Blue]

hast2 said:

280E said:

hast2 said:

You should have been giving way to traffic (at the roundabout give way line) already on the roundabout, not just those coming from the right.

What bit don't you understand?

Highway Code 185

When reaching the roundabout you should

•give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
•check whether road markings allow you to enter the roundabout without giving way. If so, proceed, but still look to the right before joining
•watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout ;be aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all
•look forward before moving off to make sure traffic in front has moved off.

Edited by hast2 on Friday 17th November 08:07

From the OP, "I was already established on the roundabout..."

[spookly]

Yeah, looks to me that you did almost the same thing to the car on your right on the roundabout, and the only reason you didn't cut that car up was that you gunned it. Problem with that is that the car approaching from your right won't know you're going to go fast or slow, so you're likely to cause him to slow or deviate. Poor driving from you.

[hairyben]

Yeah the learner entered with caution whereas you barrelled on in like Han solo so yeah you'd catch them up.