Parking Fine In Private Space
Discussion
Thought id see if anyone else had this and where they went with it.
With our flat, the leasehold includes 2 parking spaces.
My friends car has been parked in our underground space for months while he does some welding on my car.
We received a letter through the post accompanied by parking permits stating these must be displayed at all times.
One permit went in my wife's car and another in my friend's.
It's an awkward 80's Italian can and the permit fell from the dash but was clearly visible on the seat through the windscreen (this "viable through the windscreen is something they love on their paperwork).
I wrote to PCM explaining the situation with photos but they're adamant it has to be paid.
Reading up a little, as it's a private space included on my deed, I have the right to quite enjoyment and they need to prove permission from the land owner, not the management company to enforce the parking rules.
What's the verdict?
With our flat, the leasehold includes 2 parking spaces.
My friends car has been parked in our underground space for months while he does some welding on my car.
We received a letter through the post accompanied by parking permits stating these must be displayed at all times.
One permit went in my wife's car and another in my friend's.
It's an awkward 80's Italian can and the permit fell from the dash but was clearly visible on the seat through the windscreen (this "viable through the windscreen is something they love on their paperwork).
I wrote to PCM explaining the situation with photos but they're adamant it has to be paid.
Reading up a little, as it's a private space included on my deed, I have the right to quite enjoyment and they need to prove permission from the land owner, not the management company to enforce the parking rules.
What's the verdict?
Happened to me - argued it a bit, they insisted and sent various letters demanding payment. After ignoring them they stopped after a while and that was the last I heard of it.
I’m probably totally wrong on this, but I think they would have difficulty enforcing against a leaseholder when they have the deeds to the property showing ownership of the parking place.
I’m probably totally wrong on this, but I think they would have difficulty enforcing against a leaseholder when they have the deeds to the property showing ownership of the parking place.
IANAL, but I too would think they'd be p1ssing in the wind trying to fine you for lawful use of your own land.
Private parking companies enforcing these kind of car parks are meant to be targeting people who the land owner(s) have not authorised to park in their spaces. Would it not be the case that the freeholder would need to have this parking management defined in your leasehold agreement, otherwise surely they'd give up their ability to contract to the parking services for your parking space, making it unenforceable. Have you checked your leasehold?
Private parking companies enforcing these kind of car parks are meant to be targeting people who the land owner(s) have not authorised to park in their spaces. Would it not be the case that the freeholder would need to have this parking management defined in your leasehold agreement, otherwise surely they'd give up their ability to contract to the parking services for your parking space, making it unenforceable. Have you checked your leasehold?
spookly said:
IANAL, but I too would think they'd be p1ssing in the wind trying to fine you for lawful use of your own land.
It isn't his land.It's the freeholder's land, which he has a right to use, subject to the terms of the agreement - which include displaying a permit.
Was the permit displayed? It was not displayed as required in the agreement.
Is it reasonable to expect the parking enforcement person to peer through the windows in a presumably not very well lit car park, just in case the permit's kicking around somewhere in there?
TooMany2cvs said:
It isn't his land.
It's the freeholder's land, which he has a right to use, subject to the terms of the agreement - which include displaying a permit.
Was the permit displayed? It was not displayed as required in the agreement.
Is it reasonable to expect the parking enforcement person to peer through the windows in a presumably not very well lit car park, just in case the permit's kicking around somewhere in there?
Wouldn't the agreement be his Lease though?It's the freeholder's land, which he has a right to use, subject to the terms of the agreement - which include displaying a permit.
Was the permit displayed? It was not displayed as required in the agreement.
Is it reasonable to expect the parking enforcement person to peer through the windows in a presumably not very well lit car park, just in case the permit's kicking around somewhere in there?
If the Freeholder wants to change the terms of the Lease (eg parking permits) wouldn't that require the Leaseholders agreement?
PurpleMoonlight said:
TooMany2cvs said:
It isn't his land.
It's the freeholder's land, which he has a right to use, subject to the terms of the agreement - which include displaying a permit.
Was the permit displayed? It was not displayed as required in the agreement.
Is it reasonable to expect the parking enforcement person to peer through the windows in a presumably not very well lit car park, just in case the permit's kicking around somewhere in there?
Wouldn't the agreement be his Lease though?It's the freeholder's land, which he has a right to use, subject to the terms of the agreement - which include displaying a permit.
Was the permit displayed? It was not displayed as required in the agreement.
Is it reasonable to expect the parking enforcement person to peer through the windows in a presumably not very well lit car park, just in case the permit's kicking around somewhere in there?
Would the terms of the original lease not override the new parking terms?
Are the parking spaces clearly defined in the leasehold documents / plan?
IANAL but I am a freeholder of a building converted into flats and would not think I, or a management company, would have the legal right to put restrictions on who can and can not use "your" parking spaces and on what terms...could be wrong though.
Are the parking spaces clearly defined in the leasehold documents / plan?
IANAL but I am a freeholder of a building converted into flats and would not think I, or a management company, would have the legal right to put restrictions on who can and can not use "your" parking spaces and on what terms...could be wrong though.
TooMany2cvs said:
Probably not. It's probably a separate arrangement - especially if there's any additional fee for the parking spaces. Even if it's part of the lease, then the lease'll just say something in the direction of "see the paperwork for the parking spaces", which almost certainly says "subject to change".
Do you know and have experience of these things or is that just a guess / your opinion?TooMany2cvs said:
Probably not. It's probably a separate arrangement - especially if there's any additional fee for the parking spaces. Even if it's part of the lease, then the lease'll just say something in the direction of "see the paperwork for the parking spaces", which almost certainly says "subject to change".
yes they would. the lease is highly unlikely to specify the exact terms of the parking regime as it is nowthe freeholder would have to agree variations in the lease and up until that point the lease trumps any T&Cs imposed by management company and parking company.
scratcher_ said:
The parking permit system was only set up in October and there's no mention of it anywhere in the lease. We've lived here for 4 years now.
They've also decided I was the named driver although I have no keys or insurance for the car and it's not in my name.
Therefore you can quite happily go back to them and inform they are trespassing on land in which they have no business. They do not have the permission of the landowner to operate and you request the PCN is cancelled immediately and you reserve the right to take further action for a breach of the Data Protection Act. They had no right to be there, therefore no right to obtain vehicle details from DVLA and now hold personal details with which they have no need to and you hold them, managing agents and DVLA jointly liable for any claims.They've also decided I was the named driver although I have no keys or insurance for the car and it's not in my name.
alfie2244 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Probably not. It's probably a separate arrangement - especially if there's any additional fee for the parking spaces. Even if it's part of the lease, then the lease'll just say something in the direction of "see the paperwork for the parking spaces", which almost certainly says "subject to change".
Do you know and have experience of these things or is that just a guess / your opinion?Primacy of Contract - if your Lease/AST states that you have use of a parking space, and no mention of a permit, PCM can not overrule this with a sign on the wall. There are a lot of previous cases that support this.
They are not shy about issuing court claims, but they do not exactly have a good record in court - plenty of reading here - http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=p...
They are not shy about issuing court claims, but they do not exactly have a good record in court - plenty of reading here - http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/search?q=p...
scratcher_ said:
The parking permit system was only set up in October and there's no mention of it anywhere in the lease. We've lived here for 4 years now.
They've also decided I was the named driver although I have no keys or insurance for the car and it's not in my name.
If it’s not in the lease how can they bring in such rules retrospectively? We had a similar situation at the business centre where our office was located. The landlords brought in a ‘permit display’ system but one of the existing tenants (a firm of solicitors) just said no.They've also decided I was the named driver although I have no keys or insurance for the car and it's not in my name.
Seriously you need to tell them to trot on.
TooMany2cvs said:
alfie2244 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Probably not. It's probably a separate arrangement - especially if there's any additional fee for the parking spaces. Even if it's part of the lease, then the lease'll just say something in the direction of "see the paperwork for the parking spaces", which almost certainly says "subject to change".
Do you know and have experience of these things or is that just a guess / your opinion?TooMany2cvs said:
alfie2244 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Probably not. It's probably a separate arrangement - especially if there's any additional fee for the parking spaces. Even if it's part of the lease, then the lease'll just say something in the direction of "see the paperwork for the parking spaces", which almost certainly says "subject to change".
Do you know and have experience of these things or is that just a guess / your opinion?Just a guess, then?
TooMany2cvs said:
Probably not. It's probably a separate arrangement - especially if there's any additional fee for the parking spaces. Even if it's part of the lease, then the lease'll just say something in the direction of "see the paperwork for the parking spaces", which almost certainly says "subject to change".
Are we agreed you are just guessing then?
PurpleMoonlight said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Probably not. It's probably a separate arrangement - especially if there's any additional fee for the parking spaces. Even if it's part of the lease, then the lease'll just say something in the direction of "see the paperwork for the parking spaces", which almost certainly says "subject to change".
Are we agreed you are just guessing then?The difference is that I acknowledged the fact by saying "probably"...
scratcher_ said:
permit fell from the dash but was clearly visible on the seat through the windscreen (this "viable through the windscreen is something they love on their paperwork).
Do you have a photo of this? A strongly worded reply, along with a photo and stuff about Data Protection might get them off your back.Forums | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff